Zac: 0:12

Hello, friends, my name is Zach, and welcome to the Enter the Danger Podcast, where we have conversations to help us grow in our skill, to enter into difficult conversations with kindness, empathy, and curiosity, so that we can be more effective in our jobs and have deeper and more meaningful relationships.

0:30

My guest this week is my friend Dr. Marcus Carson. Marcus is the owner and founder of Orange Consulting. He has consulted individuals, teams, nonprofits, schools, churches, ministries, businesses, and industry for almost two decades. He's a working genius certified facilitator through the table group where he's participated in a number of trainings. Marcus has extensive education, training, and experience that empowers him to serve individuals, teams, and organizes and organizations well. I'm really excited to share this conversation with you, so let's get into it.

Speaker 6: 1:04

Hi Marcus. How you doing today? Good. Great. Zach, how are you? I'm, I am wonderful. I'm really excited about this conversation. I'm gonna jump straight in. Marcus's first questions. Okay, great. I'm excited too. What is one event that affects how you enter the danger with others?

Speaker 7: 1:22

Yeah, I, um, I think it's interesting'cause I, I think there's maybe one event, but there's more importantly a series of events. Like I could go all the way back to childhood and I, I've always been kind of a challenger, so entering the danger has been always natural for me. Like I'm an Enneagram eight. That's what we're called the challengers. So entering the danger has been natural, but like very young. I was in a childcare situation and I don't remember all the details, but you know, through counseling this kinda stuff comes up. Right? Yeah. Uh, where I challenged someone in authority and experienced something very traumatic. Mm-hmm. And I think like from then forward. For many years, decades, really. I had this kind of weird relationship with entering the danger'cause I wanted to enter the danger, but I didn't feel safe entering the danger because Yeah. Of, of what happened. And then working with churches, like entering the danger with churches, I think is a little more difficult. Uh, especially as a pastor, not as much as, as a consultant. Um, and so, uh, yeah, I would say like. When I came to Faith, I felt renewed to enter the danger, but then it turned out churches really don't like to enter the danger.

Speaker 8: 2:31

Yeah.

Speaker 7: 2:32

And so, like I experienced a lot of hardship from that, uh, even a little unemployment from that. Right. And so I think that those things have really, uh, affected me more than anything. I think also having to learn about like the, the. Best way to enter the danger.'cause I think sometimes it's easy to be the extremes. You don't do it at all, or you do it like with maybe a little too much, uh, feistiness maybe is the, the nice word.

Speaker 6: 3:03

Yeah. For

Speaker 7: 3:03

that.

Speaker 6: 3:04

Yeah. What's a struggle or a weakness that you have when it comes to entering the danger? Because it sounds like you have maybe, I don't wanna say a proclivity that might be too strong of a word, but a lot of people shy back from it pretty strongly. It sounds like you don't. Do you ha or what weakness or sh or do you have in that, in that way?

Speaker 7: 3:25

Impatience. So like, I am naturally not a patient person, you know, I'm very driven, kind of go, go, go. Um, you know, wanna maximize time. And so I think, uh, entering the danger sometimes, uh, all the time, maybe.

Speaker 9: 3:40

It takes

Speaker 7: 3:41

a lot of patience and, and you know, when I'm not taking it personally, it's a little more easy to be patient, but when I, when it feels personal, I think it's harder to be patient. Right. Yeah. And again, I would say that's been harder, uh, being a pastor of a church than being a consultant to a business or a consultant to a church or leading, you know, a nonprofit. I, I think that there's this sense of kind of, uh, entering the danger, dealing with conflict. Is not Christian, because to be Christian is to be nice. Yeah. Um, you know, nice ity as I call it. Right? Yeah. And so, uh, so I think that's the challenge is, um, you're dealing with a bunch of people who not only don't want to enter the danger, they don't know how to enter the danger, and it's very overwhelming when you do. Right? Yeah. So it is this like. It's like an earthquake that hits right. It's a shock to the system. And so being patient with that process, uh, when it's really obvious that we need to deal with something that's, that's something that continues to be a growing edge for me.

Speaker 6: 4:47

Yeah. So I would usually, my third question that I ask is how do you still have the necessary conversations? But I think maybe a more important question, because it sounds like you still have them, is how do you have them in healthy ways when. Maybe it sounds like you wanna have it sooner than maybe is, is is healthy. So how do you still enter that into, into that? Well,

Speaker 7: 5:11

yeah, I don't think the issue's been having it sooner than healthy, but wanting to move through things after I have the conversation more quickly than people can.

Speaker 8: 5:20

Yeah.

Speaker 7: 5:20

Um, that, uh, you know, I, I would say that for me, um. I'm not afraid to have those conversations. I think they're really critical. Like I'm though I don't always love it and nobody really loves conflict, you know, I've embraced. I've embraced that role, uh, in, in my life. I, I just think that, again, for me, the patience issue is not when to have those conversations, but, uh, you know how to take your time with those and, and I think it's really the posture you come from. Right? Do you come from a posture of curiosity or judgment, right? Yeah. Do you come. From a posture of, of humility or superiority? Uh, do you come from kind of this, uh, I don't know how to frame it. Uh, you know, do you, do you come from this posture of, of service right? Or this posture of fixing and, and really. I think the hardest part of entering the danger, regardless of your personality, to do that process well, you have to be vulnerable, and vulnerability is not something that's particularly welcome in our culture and less welcome in the church culture. I'm working with the church right now and we're preaching through a mental health sermon series.

Speaker 8: 6:36

Yeah.

Speaker 7: 6:36

And to do that well. You need high vulnerability.

Speaker 8: 6:40

Yeah. And

Speaker 7: 6:40

my personality is such, the thing I crave the most is vulnerability. And the thing that scares me the most is vulnerability.

Speaker 8: 6:46

Yeah.

Speaker 7: 6:46

And so you can't enter the danger Well

Speaker 8: 6:49

Yeah. Without

Speaker 7: 6:50

being vulnerable. And so I think that's the thing. That's the tension, right? Yeah. You know, my coming from a place of reactivity or a place of vulnerability.

Speaker 8: 6:58

Yeah.

Speaker 7: 6:58

And, and really it's that posture. It's, it's not the timing, it's the posture. In terms of when to start, like it, it's, you wanna enter the danger as, as soon as possible, in my opinion. So for me, I want to enter the danger as soon as my posture is in a place where I can do that. Yeah. The impatience comes with me. Right. And you know, in that part, and the impatience comes with after you've entered the danger, you know, waiting for people to get it right. Yeah. That that is, that is really frustrating. I think. I think, again, especially in religious organizations,'cause there's so much at stake and we should model this, you know, even Jesus gave us a paradigm for this, so we should model this well.

Speaker 9: 7:40

Yeah. And

Speaker 7: 7:41

I think like the, this nature of Christianity, like, it, it, it makes it really hard, but it makes it more important, right? Yeah. That we're supposed to be the model of what this looks like. Yeah. And again, I would argue oftentimes we're worse at this than the culture when we should be better at

Speaker 6: 7:58

it.

Speaker 8: 7:58

Yeah.

Speaker 6: 7:59

Yeah. What you've talked a few times about, um, needing to be patient after the conversation, I think often. When we talk about entering the danger, it's so focused on the conversation itself. What do we miss when we're just focused on that and we don't think about the accountability, the follow up, the conversation after that.

Speaker 7: 8:25

Yeah, we miss a lot. I mean, I think we miss the fruit of the actual conversation and I get that we're focused on the conversation.'cause it's hard and it's scary and like you're psyching yourself up and you're getting ready and you're wanting to do it right because this has been eating at you. And so I, I, I think it makes sense that we focus on that, but. We, we need to then after be willing to say, okay, what's next? And, and maybe even before we have the conversation to say, what would be the the best possible outcome of this? But I also think we don't want to think too much ahead because first off, we don't know how people are gonna react. And secondly, I. I think we have to recognize that if we think too far ahead, we're operating from an assumption that we're right about everything, which is impossible. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So when we enter the danger, we always learn something. So I don't, I don't think it's so wrong to be so focused on the conversation. You just can't go, whew, I had the conversation, now we're done. Yeah. I, I think you've gotta say, be able to end the conversation of where do you think we go from here?

Speaker 8: 9:26

Yeah.

Speaker 7: 9:26

Uh, and, and, and be open to that and then start to think about it after the conversation. Because I think, again, if you get too ahead of yourself, you psych yourself up more and you make some assumptions that may miss some opportunities for learning for yourself.

Speaker 6: 9:41

Yeah. And is that process, do we, do we say, okay, this is where we're going, we're gonna stick to it? Or do you, would you reevaluate that? Say after a week and a half you say. We thought we were going here. Is this still the right way to go? Should that be kind of a consistent feedback loop?

Speaker 7: 9:59

Yeah. I mean, I think constant dialogue's important. I think consistent feedback is important. The way I frame it is everything's an experiment, even if we've been doing it for a hundred years.

Speaker 8: 10:09

Yeah,

Speaker 7: 10:09

right. Because if we take the posture of an experiment, we're looking to learn as we go. Yeah. And if it goes well, we're celebrating. And if. We pick up some information, you know, we pull that to aside for a different thing and if it goes badly, we kind of pivot. Right?

Speaker 8: 10:22

Yeah.

Speaker 7: 10:22

And pivoting is work and we've done all this work to enter the danger. So, you know, we're kind of tired out and we don't necessarily want to continue. Uh,'cause I mean, I think after you enter the danger, you kind of continue to have to enter the danger just in smaller ways.

Speaker 8: 10:39

Yeah.

Speaker 7: 10:39

Right. You know, and I, and I think our nature is, it's like the drive-through mentality. We, we order our food, we get our food, we eat it, we're done. Right. I don't think that works this way. Human relationship doesn't like personal growth doesn't, organizational health doesn't.

Speaker 8: 10:54

Yeah. And

Speaker 7: 10:55

so it's this continuum of, uh, entering the danger. And, and, you know, people have asked me, does it get easier? And I'm like, yes and no. I, I would say that you get better at it. If you're paying attention. So in that sense, it's easier.

Speaker 9: 11:11

Yeah. Right.

Speaker 7: 11:11

You as you do it and experience more positive outcomes. You know, it gets easier to have the courage to do it, but I think it's still hard. I still get that pit in my stomach, even though I literally do this professionally every day, all day for a living.

Speaker 8: 11:28

Yeah.

Speaker 7: 11:29

In business, in industry, in ministries and churches and nonprofits in my house. Right. So like all day, every day. And I do think even though it's how I'm built, sometimes I want a break and sometimes it tires me out. And a lot, I, I think it always tires you out because again. There's this sense of which, um, even if you're like, I think we assume entering the danger, right? Like you're criticizing someone else, and so your fear is their reaction. Okay, that's fair. But I think by entering the danger, you're laying yourself a little bare.

Speaker 8: 12:05

Yep.

Speaker 7: 12:06

And so there's always this piece of vulnerability that comes with that. I just think ironically, vulnerability seems harder in the church.

Speaker 8: 12:15

Yeah. When it should

Speaker 7: 12:15

be easier.

Speaker 8: 12:16

Yeah.

Speaker 7: 12:17

Not that our, again, not that our culture's exponentially better instead of these, especially these days, I think. Um, but yeah, so I would say that's, you know, you've be, you've gotta be willing to have the conversation of what's next without predetermining. What you think is next because I, I, I think you'll miss something if you, do

Speaker 6: 12:41

you, what you were just saying reminded me of the story of the husband. I'm, you may have heard, I'm not sure. I, I think it's fairly common who didn't ever told his wife that I loved you, and she gets upset and 20 years later she says, why didn't you ever, why don't you ever tell me that you love me? He says, well, I told you on our wedding day. I'll let you know if it changes. And it's that, it's that idea, I think sometimes that we can have when we're, when we enter the dangers, like we have a conversation once and then we think it's, it's, it's all good, but it needs that follow up. Is that, is there a similar similarities there? Is there crossover there between, between these two?

Speaker 7: 13:21

I think so because both are relational, right? That entering the danger is always relational.

Speaker 8: 13:26

Yeah.

Speaker 7: 13:27

And you know, I think when we think about marriage, it's relational. And I do think, you know, we love comfort, we love coasting, and all of this stuff is uncomfortable. You know, don't, you know, old sayings don't upset the apple cart. Right? Yeah. You know, don't poke the bear.

Speaker 8: 13:42

Yeah.

Speaker 7: 13:43

But, and that's fine if you're perfectly content with the way things are and nothing in the world is hurting or bothering you.

Speaker 8: 13:49

Yeah.

Speaker 7: 13:49

Uh, I, I've just not really experienced much of that in my life, you know? Now there may be contentment in this area, but not in this area. You know, I just finished leading a, uh, you know, one of my, I, I joke, I'm Octo vocational, and one of my hats is, you know, I, I lead these. These trips that, uh, you know, have kind of both a faith and like historical and kind of pleasure component. And so I was leading a trip in Greece and Turkey and right, like, it was a great trip. It's one of the smoothest trips I've ever had. Uh, coming back was a disaster, uh, with, with the airline and yet. It'd be really easy to focus on the great thing and avoid the disaster of the airline or hone in on the entire disaster of the airline after this great trip.

Speaker 8: 14:33

Yeah, but

Speaker 7: 14:33

the real question I'm saying to myself is that was great. What can get better? Right? Yeah. That, that I think entering the danger is about this constant improvement and, and I do believe that a lot of times we enter the danger to solve a problem or to address a discomfort. We're experiencing that. Uh. But really, I would argue that entering the danger is actually about learning.

Speaker 8: 14:59

Mm.

Speaker 7: 15:00

Uh, that, you know, that, that self-knowledge is, is so essential, uh, to us that how do we continue to, to learn? And I think this process of, of entering the danger. Will help us learn. One of the things in working with organizations in crisis, in decline, you know, in massive conflict, right? Lawyers, you know, news stories, all this stuff, like, that's a lot of what I do. And one of the things I've learned is there's kind of a direct correlation between, between people's openness to do hard things. And their level of desperation. Hmm. And I think that's a, that's great. Yeah. Like, because it allows me to do what I do, but I also think it's a tragedy. Yeah. Because if we were more willing to learn to change, to enter the danger all along, maybe we wouldn't have gotten to that place of desperation.

Speaker 8: 15:51

Yeah. And

Speaker 7: 15:51

I just think we're so reactive as human creatures, especially today and in North America in particular, we're so reactive. Um, you know, how do we actually choose to be, uh, proactive? And, and I think that entering the danger. The more it's proactive than reactive, the better. It's never gonna be a hundred percent of the oth of, of one.

Speaker 8: 16:16

Yeah. Um,

Speaker 7: 16:16

because obviously our desire to do it comes from a reaction to something.

Speaker 8: 16:21

Yeah. But

Speaker 7: 16:21

I, I, I think that there's, uh, a lot more self-reflection. We make this about the other person. Yeah. And their reaction to us, or we make this about the organization and their reaction to us. But it's really about us. Yeah. It's really about our insecurities, our fears, uh, you know, our, you know. What we value. This is, and that's why vulnerability is so key, because this is actually about us. This is not about the thing. Yeah. This is not about the person.

Speaker 6: 16:48

Yeah. I've been, I've been reminded while you were talking about this, uh, of what you said earlier about Nice and then the relational aspect and, and I'm wondering if there's. The, the link maybe, and the correlation is twofold, almost where we feel like as Christians, you know, Jesus was love, and so we have to love other people. And when we have these difficult relationships, that's unloving because we're gonna be causing friction, right? When in actuality it's the opposite. It

Speaker 7: 17:28

is the opposite.

Speaker 6: 17:29

And if it feels unloving. Back to your earlier point as well. I wonder if it's because we have to practice and when we're out of practice, we're more likely to cause relational friction, which causes us then not to practice because we have to be loving. And if we're gonna cause friction, then we're not gonna be. And I'm wondering, is there something to this cycle where we need to practice but we don't want to?'cause we value the relationship so high, which leads us not to practice, which caused us to lose the relationship. Am I way off base there, or, or is it more No, I

Speaker 7: 17:59

think there's, I think there's some truth to that, but, you know, when I'm teaching, uh, for example, when I'm teaching conflict and faith-based settings, um, you know, Jesus actually gave a model for dealing with sin in conflict. Yeah. And you know, the, the first step of that is to go to the person directly, which is literally entering the danger. Yep. And uh, what I say to people all the time is, you have to understand when I hurt somebody. 95% of the time, I have no idea. Right, like it's personality, it's a bad day. It's a miscommunication, it's a misunderstanding. And so when somebody doesn't tell me, that really hurts me deeply.

Speaker 9: 18:41

Yeah.

Speaker 7: 18:41

Because first I've missed the chance to make it right, to like, apologize and make it right. Second, I've missed the chance to learn. Uh, to learn something about myself and how I come across and how I do things. But thirdly, like I probably keep doing that same thing to other people, hurting those people as well. So what I tell people is, you're not gonna hurt me by telling me. Sure. Maybe I'll be tender for a little bit, maybe I'll even react poorly, but, but I am far more hurt by someone who doesn't speak up. Yeah. Than someone who does, because what they're saying to me is, you're not valuable enough to me. Yeah. To have a hard conversation. And I've experienced this as a parent. I've experienced this, uh, in marriage, this mental health sermon series I'm talking about. We're, we're doing Sunday, we're doing a panel, and we're talking about how in our house, how we have honest hard conversations around our emotions and around mental health. Right? And, and so we, in our house. Say really, really hard things to each other.

Speaker 8: 19:44

Yeah.

Speaker 7: 19:45

And um, you know, for two of us, that is harder than others. Yeah. But we all do it because at the end of the day, we want each other to be the best version of ourselves that we can be.

Speaker 8: 20:01

Yep.

Speaker 7: 20:02

And so, again, we like the easy way, but like everything of value is difficult. Everything of value is difficult. Relationships, parenting, marriage, you know, again, I'm a person of faith, so following Jesus, like all the things of value are actually hard.

Speaker 8: 20:18

Yeah.

Speaker 7: 20:19

And we, we have become so customed to, uh, things being easy in our culture. And I, you know, I've been to 32 different countries besides, uh, my own. And when you watch other cultures do this and you know, maybe half are, are, you know, enter the danger more easily and half are actually kind of worse at this than we are. It's very eye-opening, right? Yeah. That you begin to kinda look in a mirror and say, okay. Um, you know, one of the things one of my mentors said that I still struggle with, he says, assume a yes. And I'm like, what do you mean? He says, well, you know, assume the best in people. Yeah, assume the best possible outcome, the best possible motive. But we are in a very pessimistic, cynical. Dark, you know, negative culture. So when we have a moment where we have to enter the danger, we assume the very worst in the situation and the very worst in the person when you know, like, oh, they're evil, they're bad, they're awful. Right? Yeah. When the reality is worst case scenario, we just disagree on something philosophically. Yeah. You know, best case scenario, it's a misunderstanding that makes both. Parties better. Again, whether this is person to person or person to organization. And, and, uh, you know, somebody once said to me, it must be fun going into organizations and telling them what's wrong with them. And I'm like, no, it's really not.'cause that's not only hard to do, it's hard to watch people experience it. Yeah. But the, the thing that's hardest is you're actually supposed to be a part of the solution.

Speaker 8: 21:51

Yeah.

Speaker 7: 21:51

And so you can't point something out that you're not willing to. Be able to help resolve. You can. I just don't think you should.

Speaker 8: 22:00

Yeah.

Speaker 7: 22:00

And, and so, you know, I misspoke there, but like, that's huge. Uh, this kind of posture. So I do, I do think we get caught in a cycle, you know, that. Um, but you know, the opposite of fear is not courage. It's trust.

Speaker 8: 22:15

Yep.

Speaker 7: 22:16

And I, I think that this comes down to trust. Yeah. Uh, and you know, and, and we don't have to trust the person. We don't have to trust the situation, we don't have to trust the organization, but we, and even if we're not people of faith, we can actually trust that no matter what happens, it's gonna be okay.

Speaker 8: 22:35

Yeah.

Speaker 7: 22:35

Um, you know, like I had a friend who had put in their wallet a post-it note that says, this conflict will not be the end of you.

Speaker 8: 22:43

Yeah.

Speaker 7: 22:44

And, and I think, you know, we assume. Because again, if you like conflict, get it professional help.'cause that's not like normal or Right. Like this is supposed to be hard. Yeah. Yeah. This is pretty hard. But again, I've learned far more from my failures than I could ever learn from my successes. Yeah. I've learned far more from the moments where I've hurt people than any of the three, four degrees that, you know, I've earned over my academic career. And, and so that. For me, you know, I've just gotta remind myself of that. I still have to psych myself up.

Speaker 8: 23:20

Yep.

Speaker 7: 23:20

Uh, some days more than others. Right. You know, and some days it's like, you know what? I need to wait a couple days even though it's gonna be painful for me because I can't do this well right now.

Speaker 8: 23:29

Yep.

Speaker 7: 23:29

Uh, we have that conversation in our house all the time. We get upset with each other, like, okay, I'm not in a place to have this conversation right now, so we're gonna have to have this conversation a different time.

Speaker 8: 23:38

Yeah.

Speaker 7: 23:38

Yeah. And getting space to do that.

Speaker 6: 23:41

Yeah. I, I, I hope people weren't driving because they were able to take notes during that.'cause you, you had, you said so much good in there. I, I think one thing I want to want to touch on really quick before I move on to my next question is if I'm remembering right or if my, my notes are correct, I should say, is you are not valuable enough to me to have a tough conversation. Is that what you said?

Speaker 7: 24:02

I mean, that's the question, like do you value the person or the organization enough to have the tough conversation with them?

Speaker 8: 24:09

Yeah. And

Speaker 7: 24:09

for me, when people I care about aren't willing to have that conversation with me, that's really hurtful because again, I go, do you not, do you not value me?

Speaker 8: 24:19

Yeah.

Speaker 7: 24:19

Right. Do you, do you not see something in me? Is our relationship not important to you? You know, that you wouldn't wanna resolve this? And again, that could be with a person or with. With an organization.

Speaker 8: 24:31

Yeah.

Speaker 7: 24:32

And so, um, it is, and yeah, I get excited. So I get excited and I say lots of things, so, yeah. No, it's great. You know, you might be just playing slow motion, I don't know. But

Speaker 6: 24:42

yeah, I don't think it's a, it's not a two x speed. It's a, it's a one point you wanna slow this podcast down. I, I remember so clearly there's, there's two conversations. Yeah. People have been

Speaker 7: 24:53

trying to slow me down

Speaker 6: 24:54

for years, man, it's not gonna work. Um. That I remember. That's not that, that real, that I felt valued, like it still hurt, but I really felt valued. The first one. Shout out Charlie Harris, if you're listening to this. I was 18 years old and he came up to me and I was doing a nine month, um, uh, gap year program, and, and I had been living up in Thailand. I was a missionary kid. I had no idea of social norms. I was super awkward. He's like, Zach, do you know that you smell bad? And I was like, oh. And I was like, what? I smell. But in that moment, like he came to me and he said this really awkward, uncomfortable thing, but that made me more aware and made, and I remember that so clearly. I remember where I was. I remember what he said. I remember the time of day like, because it was such a transformative thing for me where like, Hey, this person's coming to me. They're helping me be better than I am. I remember the second time it was Bill Carroll again. Bill, if you're listening. Um, I had been working for him as a supervisor of teams, so I, I, I was helping look over about, about 30, 35 people or so, and he, and he came to me. He said, Zach, we've been getting concerns about favoritism from you. And I was like, what? Again? Like, oh my gosh, I can't like that. I've been doing that. That sucks. But another piece of that was why didn't they come and tell me, like when you mention that it hurts when people don't tell you, oh, I know. That pain, like, thank you, bill, but also this other side, like why weren't, why didn't these people come and tell me? Really painful. Anyway, I, I, I wanted to, to give like two stories on how much of a difference and, and I still remember those conversations, even though they were, they were, you know, maybe 10 years ago with the most recent one. Um, something you said really early on, Marcus, um, talking about. Um, something that happened to you when you were as a, was a kid, um, and that has impacted your ability or did impact your ability. Is it, is it common? Um, and how do we work through it if it is common for wounds that we have as a kid to keep impacting us through childhood as we start to, you know, leave harm. Is that always where, hey, we just need therapy to work through that. Are there other ways? How do we approach those situations?

Speaker 7: 27:19

Yeah, that's a great question. By the way, just real quick, when you talk about remembering conversations, I mean, I have some that are more than 20 years ago and I remember what the air smelled like, right? Yeah. You know, they were so transformative for me.

Speaker 8: 27:30

Yeah.

Speaker 7: 27:31

Yeah. I mean, I think obviously the deeper the wound, the more professional help you need.

Speaker 8: 27:35

Yeah.

Speaker 7: 27:36

Uh, I, I think that. Um, you know, that self-reflection is, is really critical. And, and my argument is self-knowledge is not a tool in the leader toolbox. It is the toolbox.

Speaker 9: 27:48

Mm-hmm. Right?

Speaker 7: 27:49

Like it is the container of everything. And, and I think, I tell leaders all the time, like, if you want to grow your ceiling of leadership, you wanna grow your ceiling of health, you wanna grow your ceiling of effectiveness. The only way to raise your ceiling is to raise your self-knowledge.

Speaker 8: 28:04

Yeah.

Speaker 7: 28:04

I would argue self-knowledge is harder than entering the danger because you're literally entering the danger with yourself. Mm-hmm. And so you've got no one or no thing else to put it on, uh, other than than you. And so, and most of us don't remember our childhood wounds. Right. We repress them. Like that's a normal natural,

Speaker 9: 28:23

yeah. Healthy

Speaker 7: 28:24

psychological measure. Mechanism. But as we start to look to our reactions to things, then we kind of go, oh, wait a minute. Where's this come from? And for me, a lot of it has been people just looking at me and going, why do you think you do that? Like, why do you, usually my wife, right? Like, why do you, why do you respond that way? What's going on inside you? And so having those key people that are willing to ask that question so that you can do that. Self-exploration, I think a lot of times is really that first step, like how do you develop that circle of people that you know no matter what are for you, so they can kind of ask those, you know, those tough questions so that they can enter the danger with you so that you can enter the danger with yourself so that you can do better at entering the danger. With other people and other organizations. Yeah. And, and I think that's, that's where it becomes, you know, certainly very tricky. And it's like, you know, uh, my wife said to me one time, why, why, why, why, what causes you to say hurtful things? Right. You know, our deepest relationships are the ones where we say the most hurtful things. And Yeah. And I'm going because I'm, I said because either I'm a hurt and so I'm gonna hurt back.

Speaker 8: 29:42

Yeah.

Speaker 7: 29:43

Or B, um, I'm angry at myself and this is me dealing with it an unhealthy way.

Speaker 8: 29:50

Yeah.

Speaker 7: 29:50

Right. So then for. For her, it's like, it doesn't feel as personal. It's still not okay. It still needs to be addressed.

Speaker 8: 29:57

Yep.

Speaker 7: 29:57

And now I know she knows why I do it.

Speaker 8: 30:00

Yep. And

Speaker 7: 30:01

so it's easier to not do it.

Speaker 8: 30:02

Yeah.

Speaker 7: 30:03

Right. And so, I mean, I think everything like that is, is kind of practice in, in doing that, uh, for me. I get, you know, I, I'm diabetic, I see a doctor regularly because of that, right? I get my physical checkups. I also get my mental checkups and because, I mean, I would argue the mind and our emotions, uh, you know, affect far more than our physical health, uh, in, at least in terms of, you know, how we operate and, and relationally. And so, yeah, I'm just in a posture of. Monthly counseling, and if things are in a place where I don't need it, it's easier to say, let's skip this one than to go back to starting up after not doing it. So I, you know, it's a routine for me. And I have a circle, right? Like I have a whole team. Uh, Leonard Sweet wrote a book, wrote lots of books, but one of the books that people didn't read enough was. 11 indispensable relationships. And he talks about these kind of 11 relationships we all need from the encourager to the butt kicker to the, to the protege. And so a lot of times when I, you know, I do a lot of work with teams around health. A lot of times, again, especially in faith settings, I'll talk through these because we all need those people in our life. And to just ask, you know, who's, who's our encourager? Who's the one that's gonna take us outside and, you know, give us a good shot to the jaw to wake us up.

Speaker 8: 31:32

Yeah.

Speaker 7: 31:33

Uh, and, and I think it's about having that team. Yeah. And then you'll learn enough to know, hopefully when you need. To, you know, get some extra help.

Speaker 8: 31:44

Yeah.

Speaker 7: 31:45

But everything that happens in our childhood affects us. Yeah. I mean, it, you know, the brain science will tell us that it, it absolutely shapes us that our brain grows the most in the first three years. It changes the most between 15 and 25. And so these are pivotal years in terms of experiencing great things and traumatic things.

Speaker 8: 32:04

Yeah.

Speaker 7: 32:05

And so they will rewire our brain and. Rewiring the rewiring. Yeah. It's a hard word to say fast.

Speaker 8: 32:14

Yeah. You know,

Speaker 7: 32:15

rewiring that wiring that got messed up. That's a lot of work.

Speaker 8: 32:19

Yeah.

Speaker 6: 32:21

Yeah. How, how do we, I I, I'm going back to, to what you're saying just a tiny bit earlier about creating relationships that will ask us these questions. For instance, y do you do x? How do we create community intentionally that will ask?'cause that's not a natural kind of thing to ask someone. We don't grow up asking other people that question.

Speaker 9: 32:47

It is not,

Speaker 6: 32:48

how do, how do we create that for ourselves and encourage other people to create it for them? I

Speaker 7: 32:56

think we start by modeling vulnerability. Mm-hmm. I think you know that, that the best way in today's culture, and maybe forever, but certainly now, uh, is, is getting vulnerable.

Speaker 8: 33:11

Yeah.

Speaker 7: 33:11

That I would argue maybe always, but certainly now, uh, vulnerability is a superpower. And again, we live in a culture where vulnerability is a sign of weakness. You're gonna get fired, you're gonna be looked poorly upon, you know, and again, especially somebody who's. Ordained pastor. You know, you never can be, you're not ever supposed to be vulnerable because you're the pastor. But what I found is that I'm actually my most effective when I'm vulnerable because people can relate to me. Yeah. And it makes it easier for them to feel safe talking about their problems. So like if I, you know. If I stand up there and say, Hey, I struggle with this again, I'm not listing every sin. I'm not, you know, talking about every bad thought I've ever had. I mean, there's a line.

Speaker 8: 33:55

Yeah.

Speaker 7: 33:55

But to be able to say, I struggle with this. So like with the mental health thing to say, Hey, I've got this disorder and this is what it's called and this is the medicine I take for it.

Speaker 8: 34:04

Yeah.

Speaker 7: 34:04

Uh, all of a sudden becomes, you know, somebody said to me, this is very eyeopening. This is very freeing.

Speaker 8: 34:09

Yeah.

Speaker 7: 34:10

And, and what begins to happen is yes, you have some people that kinda look at you like. You're a hot mess, but then all these other people feel so safe to be vulnerable and they find all this healing because they're more willing and able to enter the danger themselves. Yeah. You know, one church I'm working with, we're doing this mental health series. Like I said, we have prayer after service for people to come up and almost nobody ever comes up. Yeah. Since we started this mental health sermon series where there's a lot of vulnerability, we have like. People, every single service.

Speaker 8: 34:42

Yeah.

Speaker 7: 34:43

Right. Because all of a sudden it becomes a better environment.

Speaker 8: 34:47

Yeah.

Speaker 7: 34:47

And again, it's counterintuitive entering the danger. It's messy, we're gonna look bad, we might hurt somebody, we might get fired, we might break a relationship, we might get kicked out of a, a group, a team, an organization. Yes, you might. But if it's so unhealthy that you can't enter the danger, it's not something you want to be a part of anyway.

Speaker 8: 35:06

Yeah.

Speaker 7: 35:07

And, and, and, and if we care enough about someone or something, we will keep entering the danger.

Speaker 8: 35:14

Yeah. We'll

Speaker 7: 35:15

keep having the hard conversations.

Speaker 8: 35:17

Yeah. But it

Speaker 7: 35:17

starts, I think, with having those hard conversations with yourself.

Speaker 6: 35:20

Yeah. Yeah. That the, the importance and the power, I think that modeling it and being the first person, and it can be so scary. Also, it can give so much healing to other people who are just waiting. Like, I can't do it. Someone else has to be first. The power of that, I don't, I don't think, can be overstated. Um,

Speaker 7: 35:47

Marcus,

Speaker 6: 35:48

I've loved this conversation.

Speaker 7: 35:49

No, and, and a lot of times that me. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of times that's me and a lot of times I will even kind of create an a slightly artificial conflict and Pat talks about mining for conflict.

Speaker 8: 36:01

Yeah.

Speaker 7: 36:02

I will mind for conflict. Yeah. Just to make sure that, you know, and that's hard too,'cause it's like entering the danger is one thing, but looking for reasons to enter the danger.

Speaker 8: 36:11

Yeah.

Speaker 7: 36:12

You know, that's a little, that's a little bit too, you know. Yeah. That's a thing.

Speaker 6: 36:16

Yeah. Uh. This has been an awesome conversation, Marcus, and, and I wish we could keep going. I always do, but we're heading towards the finish line. I've got a lightning round of questions I'd love to jump into. Let's do it. Great. Uh, your favorite leadership quote.

Speaker 7: 36:31

Uh, culture eats strategy for breakfast?

Speaker 8: 36:34

Yep.

Speaker 7: 36:34

Usually, uh, usually attributed to Max Dupree. Okay. Not Drucker. I thought it was Drucker. Oh, with Peter Drucker. Yeah, you're right. It Peter Drucker. Oh, okay. It sometimes gets attributed to Matt Max Dupree. It is Peter Drucker.

Speaker 6: 36:49

Okay. Uh, what's one underrated skill in leadership?

Speaker 7: 36:53

Discernment.

Speaker 9: 36:55

Hmm.

Speaker 7: 36:56

Your

Speaker 6: 36:56

favorite

Speaker 7: 36:56

author? Sorry, what? Your favorite, your favorite. My favorite author. Oh, boy, that's tough. Uh, I would say that my favorite leadership author or my favorite author, author,

Speaker 6: 37:09

what? Whatever you pick is great.

Speaker 7: 37:11

Okay. Uh, I would say that actually Brendan Manning, who is uh, was a, a Catholic, um, yep. Priest. Uh, is my favorite author has shaped me particularly in terms of, uh, vulnerability and, and trust. And I got to spend some time with him and it was life changing.

Speaker 6: 37:29

Oh, that's, I'm jealous. I'm, I'm really jealous. The, the furious of longing of God. This is way off track, but the furious longing of God.

Speaker 7: 37:36

I was jealous of myself. Yeah.

Speaker 6: 37:40

Uh, such a good book. Um, let's get back on track. We'll get back on track,

Speaker 7: 37:43

break'em up in gospel. That, that's my Of all of them. Yeah, that's my one.

Speaker 6: 37:46

Yeah. The most frustrating excuse someone can make for not entering the danger,

Speaker 7: 37:53

I might hurt their feelings.

Speaker 6: 37:55

Your favorite question to ask other people.

Speaker 7: 37:58

Why? I think the why matters more than the who, the what or the how, and we tend to focus. On the who, what, and the how instead of the why. Yeah. So whether it's why are things the way they are, why do you feel this way? Why do you behave this way? Yeah. Why is my favorite question.

Speaker 6: 38:14

Yeah. I love, I love that.'cause it's automatically an an open question, right? You can't, yeah. Uh, what's something that you do to make sure you're always learning?

Speaker 7: 38:24

I think intentionally building in time for podcasts, for reading. Like it's, it's about. Rhythms. Yeah. And so like even in my to-do list, there are things I do daily. There are things I do weekly, monthly, quarterly, um, in my kind of own self-development plan. And that is not just in terms of learning leadership stuff, but learning spiritually, learning relationally, uh, includes physical and mental health stuff. And every Thursday actually I review that plan to, to, to say, am I doing this?

Speaker 8: 38:57

Yeah.

Speaker 7: 38:57

Um. And where am I not? So for me, it's creating structure.

Speaker 8: 39:02

Yeah.

Speaker 7: 39:02

Uh, that's how I best do that.

Speaker 6: 39:04

Yeah. I love it. Uh, your favorite podcast.

Speaker 7: 39:07

Uh, oh boy. I would say my favorite podcast is Revisionist History, uh, by Malcolm Gladwell. Uh, I think he is the most brilliant sociologist of our time and the way he thinks about thinking about thinking.

Speaker 9: 39:21

Yeah.

Speaker 7: 39:21

Uh, just really pushes me, uh, in so many ways. And so it, it's my favorite.

Speaker 6: 39:28

A book that you keep rereading.

Speaker 7: 39:30

A book that I keep reading, uh, in the name of Jesus by Henry Nowan. It's the only book I've ever read more than three times. Uh, and so, uh, he basically, it's really short and talks about the three temptations of a leader, uh, you know, reflecting on the temptations of Jesus in the wilderness. So I read it every August, uh, and. And at least, and do it a lot with teams. Yeah.'cause it's short and easy, but it's really powerful.

Speaker 6: 39:57

Yeah. I don't even think I've heard of that one before, so I'm gonna add it to my list. What's a quality you see in others that makes you excited to get to know them?

Speaker 7: 40:08

Oh boy. Um, I would say, you know, teachability probably, or curiosity. Uh, that, that just helps me to get excited about people that I think with, with teachability, anything is possible.

Speaker 8: 40:25

Yeah.

Speaker 7: 40:25

And so, uh, that, that's a huge deal for me.

Speaker 6: 40:29

Yep. Your favorite way to build trust with other people?

Speaker 7: 40:37

Uh, travel. Uh, I think that, you know, uh, actually some authors have said this, that, you know. When you travel with people, uh, you experience joys and hardships. You know, you experience yourselves polished and not polished. And so I, I think that, you know, those shared experiences, even if the travel's just a day away at a retreat, yeah. Um, like those kind of shared experiences are transforming. Um, and so I would say it's, that's a powerful thing.

Speaker 6: 41:05

Yeah. Yeah. I love it. Uh, how does gratitude impact your life?

Speaker 7: 41:10

I think, uh, gratitude is not something I was really good at, uh, early on in life, and so it's something I've had to learn, but it really is essential because we don't get. Get to choose our circumstances. I mean, we have some control over them, but really we get to choose our attitude and perspective. Yeah. And so there's always something to be thankful for. I had a mentor that no matter what happened, he would just throw his hand up there Ear and go, yes. Right. Like the bus broke down on the way to camp with 40 smelly teenagers. Yes. Right. Like, and that really shaped me in terms of going, there's always something to celebrate. Uh. In this way, like getting stranded. I got stranded in Montreal, Canada for an extra like 30 hours and I was so ready to be home. Yeah. And my family really needed me. And even my wife is like, well, you know, at least you're not gonna be driving between like one and three in the morning tonight. And it's like, there's always something to be thankful for. Yeah. And so I think thankfulness is a choice.

Speaker 6: 42:14

Yeah. How this is, this is not here or there, but I really wanna rest on that just for a moment. How much do, do you think we miss out on? A lot. And, and, and how much do you think it would change if, if we took that perspective of, man, I've got an opportunity here that I wouldn't have had otherwise. Whether it's the bus broke down or I'm in here for 30 hours or this happened, do you think if we shifted our mindset, we would have a greater impact?

Speaker 7: 42:41

There's no question. So I, I've experienced that over and over again where something bad will happen and I'm like, all right, what's the good that's gonna come out of this again?'cause my own faith tells me that our god's a redeeming God. So, you know, he makes, you know, the beautiful, out of the ugly. And so. It's hard to see opportunities for redemption or opportunities for impact if you're not looking.

Speaker 8: 43:04

Yeah.

Speaker 7: 43:05

And one of the ways that we end up not looking is when we are distracted. Yeah. And that can be distracted by our circumstances. So there've been so many more powerful moments, uh, you know, oh, that flight got delayed, and then I sit next to somebody who's going through something that I can help them with. Or I make this great business contact. Yeah. Like,

Speaker 9: 43:24

yeah.

Speaker 7: 43:25

If I'm just sitting there stewing in my juices, woe is me. Look at my first world problems.'cause that's what they are. Yeah. You know, not only is my own posture and health not good, I I'm not seeing anything.

Speaker 8: 43:36

Yeah.

Speaker 7: 43:36

Anything around me. And so, yeah, it's huge. It's been absolutely transformative. You'll never bat a thousand at that. The, the, the thing is how can you increase your batting average?

Speaker 8: 43:47

Yeah. Right. You're

Speaker 7: 43:47

never gonna get that perfect. Yeah. But, you know, are you moving forward in your ability to do that?

Speaker 8: 43:53

Yeah.

Speaker 6: 43:54

Yeah. I love that. Thanks for that detour, Marcus. Um, we'll get back on track here. How do you stay sharp at work?

Speaker 7: 44:01

I think being aware of, um, how I'm feeling, uh, that, you know, there are certain times of days that are better for me than others. Right. And so just knowing that, okay, this is. So this is my slump time, um, knowing what gives me joy and what doesn't. So like, you know, that's where working genius, you know, that's how we met. That's where that's really, really helpful to me. Yeah. To go. Okay. Like. This is the time where I can use the energy to do something that doesn't give me joy and, and recognize that, you know, I'm gonna be a little, you know, testy and grumpy. Yeah. You know, while I do this. So again, I think it does come back to self-awareness, but noticing kind of those rhythms. I do consume a fair amount of caffeine, so that also does help. Yeah. Uh, I think the biggest X factor in my life is sleep.

Speaker 8: 44:50

Yeah.

Speaker 7: 44:50

That I get more done. In two hours of work after eight hours of sleep than I do in four hours of work after seven hours of sleep. And so recognizing that rhythm, recognizing that that's how I'm built has also been really important.

Speaker 6: 45:07

Yeah, yeah. I love that. Um, last question, Maus is white chocolate really chocolate?

Speaker 7: 45:15

I want to believe it is, but by the science of chocolate, and I've been to many chocolate factories across the world. It is not technically chocolate.

Speaker 8: 45:24

Yeah.

Speaker 7: 45:24

But I like it, so I want to believe that it is in fact. Yeah.

Speaker 6: 45:29

Great. I love it. Awesome, Marcus. I, I really enjoy this conversation. Super grateful for you being here. Before we go, first thing. Is there anything you're working on or excited about that you'd like to share with us? Second thing, if people wanna get a hold of you, how do they do that?

Speaker 7: 45:46

Yeah, I'm super easy to stock on the internet. Um, like so just Googling. You know, Marcus j Carlson or Dr. Marcus j Carlson's Easy. But I, I do a lot of things. Like I said, I'm active vocational, and so, uh, the consulting firm I run is Orange Consulting, uh, orange Consulting Info. Uh, that's the easiest way to get ahold of me, but there's lots of other ways and there's lots of other things I do. But that's probably the simplest, shortest, uh, easiest to spell way to, to get ahold of me.

Speaker 6: 46:15

Great. Great. Well, thanks again, Marcus. I really appreciate it. I hope you have a great day.

Speaker 7: 46:19

Thanks, Zach. This has been awesome. Appreciate you and the chance to be on here.

Speaker 8: 46:22

Bye.

46:23

As always, what a great conversation. Super grateful Marcus to you for being here on the podcast. Thank you so much. And as I said, the last few months, this is the last episode that I have recorded, the last episode that I'm going to release for a while. We'll see what happens as I settle into this new job that I have. Uh, but until then, I'm super grateful for you being on this journey of this podcast with me learning alongside me. I've had so much fun sharing these conversations with you over the last three years. Uh, and before we go, remember as always, friends to choose kindness, curiosity, and empathy. I.