Hello, friends, my name is Zach, and welcome to the Enter the Danger Podcast, where we have conversations to help us grow in our skill, to enter into difficult conversations with kindness, empathy, and curiosity, so that we can be more effective in our jobs and have deeper and more meaningful relationships. My guest this week is Cliff Carey. Cliff is the executive pastor at Sunrise Community Church and has been there since 2014. Before that, cliff had worked in Christian camping for almost 20 years. He and his wife, April, have been married for over 20 years, and they have four kids, the youngest, which was adopted from China. I really appreciate this conversation because I think it highlights the mentor that Cliff has been for a lot of people. I met him when we both worked at Hume Lake Christian Camps, and during that time he was intentionally developing a relationship with me to help me become the person that God created me to be. I'm really excited to share this conversation with you, so let's jump into it. Hey, cliff, thank you so much for being here on the podcast with me today. Hey, thank you, Zach. It is an absolute privilege to be here with you. Oh, I'm glad. I'm glad I, I'm glad to have you here. Um, hey, I'm gonna dive straight to these questions, cliff, if you're ready for it, let's do it. Great. First question, what's one event that affects how you enter the danger with others? Well, I, uh. First off, I'm really glad you sent me these ahead of time to, uh, to think through it a little bit because I have, uh, kind of two different parts to that, uh, two different answers to this, so to speak. But I think back to one specific event in my life when a, uh, a guy that I respect deeply, uh, who I used to work for, and he was, he wasn't just my supervisor, he was like my big boss. And, um. He set me down and, and he said, cliff, I, um, was planning on giving you a promotion, uh, in, in promoting you to this, this one position. And, and he says, but I. A couple of guys that have been working with you for the last several years came to me and, and cautioned me and said, Hey, cliff has this, this and this going on. Uh, you really need to think twice about giving him that promotion. And, and he set me down and he went through each of the things that were the core issues that he felt like I was dealing with. That were hindering me from being able to be the leader that I needed to be and, and then he set me on a path. Um. To kind of work on those things and said, you know, if you accomplish this by this point, you know, we can see that promotion coming down. Excuse me, coming down the way. So it was, you know, I, I appreciated so much that he had, um, he cared for me enough. To tell me what his frustrations were or the things that were hindering me and then, um, allowed me to rise to the occasion. So that was, you know, if I talk about one event, um, that happened that, uh, affected how I entered the danger that was so influential because I saw how it affected me, um, and taught me that, that this is something I need to do with others. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Cliff, what's a struggle or a weakness that you have when it comes to entering the danger? Oh, oh my goodness. You know, I, I, I think about that and, and it's probably the exact same one that everybody has that that. We are afraid of hurting someone. I'm afraid of what they're, how more than anything of how they're going to react. And, and that is the, the one thing I think that stops so many of us, uh, from having those hard conversations is we truly are afraid. And, and it applies in everywhere. It applies in in our work relationships, in our friendships, in our marriages, that. You, you, you don't say something to someone because you're afraid of how they're gonna respond back and, yeah. And so I, I, I would classify that as maybe the biggest hurdle is being afraid of their response. Yeah. How do you still have the necessary conversations despite that? As, as I was thinking about this one, I, I realized that if we don't have those necessary conversations with people, that we're actually hindering their personal growth. And, you know, and to, to know that, you know, in, in my case, I, I believe that. God's at work in each one of us in, in different ways. And in the same way that, that I've seen personal growth in my own life happen. From those conversations that have happened to me, I realize, hey, maybe God's using me in that person's life to help bring about some of their own personal growth. And so that really becomes a motivating factor for me is that, um. This is something that they need to hear. We know that, uh, and, and it truly is gonna be part of their growth and development. So why hinder somebody by not saying something? Yeah. Yeah. How do we move? Do we need tools? What do we need to move from that? Self-centered? I'm afraid I don't wanna hurt them. How are they gonna react to I'm denying them the opportunity to grow. Well, honestly, I think it, it, it takes a bit of, we need to take the focus off of us and how we're going to feel in the interaction that, um, we, we really have to become. Less selfish, more selfless in, in saying, I, I need to look out for their best interest, not mine. My best interest in the moment is not having a confrontation and feeling like I have a nice friendship or a relationship with this person, uh, versus what's in their best interest. So I think that the tool maybe that we need. Is to take a focus off of how is this going to affect me to truly, how is this going to affect them? What's, what's going to be the best? So I, I think it's a little bit of a mental, uh, training. Um. In the approach to it. I, I, uh, you didn't ask me about this, but I'll volunteer it because it's something that came up several years ago. I was, I was working with someone who, I had become a supervisor over this person, but they had, we had started as peers and. And about a year or two into the supervisor relationship with this person, I, I was really struggling with them in, um, I felt that they would blow me off and not listen to the things I had to say, or there was just kind of constant conflict and, and it hit me one day that, um, I don't know that I am paying attention to how, um. To what her needs are. Yeah. Going into a conversation and, and it hit me back when we were peers, we had this, uh, our supervisor put us through a, uh, uh. Oh goodness. What was it? It was, uh, the languages of appreciation in the workplace. You know, it's the, the the five love languages. Yeah. Adapted to the workplace. Okay. Yeah. And so we had to take a, uh, take a test and, and then we got to see each other's results. And I started to realize. Wait a second. I, I, I said I'm missing something in how I communicate with her, um, because she's not feeling loved and appreciated by me, and, and it just feels very conflicting. And so I went back and I had to dig through all my files and I finally found the piece of paper that had her profile of how she receives, um, appreciation in the workplace. And it was wild because. It really told me when I go in to have conversations with her, I need to stop. I need to ask how her day's going. I need to ask how her husband's doing and her kids are doing. I need to establish relationship, you know, it's qua quality time, right? And, and so we would have about 10 minutes of quality time and then she'd look at me and goes, now, now. What are you here for? And I said, well, you know, we got this going on and I was wondering if we could maybe approach it a little differently. And she's like, oh yeah, that's great. You know, and suddenly all the conflict was gone. Yeah. And, and it was just like 10 minutes, which was worth gold. And, uh, in. Letting her know that she was cared for and appreciated, and with that she was willing to open up and, and receive whatever it was feedback wise that I was gonna offer. So, like that one was, that one was a massive game changer for me. Yeah. That, that seems to tie straight into this idea of, you know, taking the focus off of ourselves, stop being self-centered and stop being others centered. How important. And, and as leaders, how does that impact our ability to have effective conflict when we are looking for ways? You know, I think of the, the golden rule where it says, treat others as you wanna be treated. Right? And a lot of, a lot of times we actually needed treat others as they want to be treated in these kinds of situations. Right. Which I think is called, I think they call it the platinum rule. How much of an impact when we're able to take that, can it have on us? Is it just. Now she'll do what I say or, or what else can it achieve for us? Well, you're right, and I love that you, you kind of phrased it that way because it really does have to come out of a heart of care and compassion for that person and not just me trying to get my way. Yeah. Um, uh, the, uh, gosh, well. Ask the question again. I, uh, I got myself distracted with what I was thinking about there for a second. No, I, I'm just, I'm just wondering what the impact is when we are able to make that shift. How much of, like, how much of an impact, what is the impact? Not just on us, but on, but on everyone else. Yeah. Well, well, here's the thing is, is that person feels affirmed. They feel cared for, they feel heard and respected and, and all of that. And so, you know, when you, then, when you begin to offer feedback, they're receiving the feedback, um, from a position of care and love as opposed to, you're just being critical of me. Yeah. Yeah, that, so this, this reminds me what you said right at the start, um, how you were gonna get the promotion, but then your boss basically said, Hey Cliff, here's some things you need to work on. And, and I wrote down, you know, he cared and he was coaching you. Are they, how intertwined are they? Are they completely intertwined? What's the relationship like between those two? Coaching and caring? And that that is, that's a really insightful question. I, I think the, if, if I look back to any team I've ever been a part of and. The, you know, I'll say sports, the, the coaches I most respected were the ones that I knew cared more about than just winning, but that they, you know, cared for me and who I was. They were willing to get to know me a little bit and, and so I think those two are so intertwined that that. If coaching is just one direction and it, and it doesn't have care, um, intermingled with it, so to speak, then it, it, it just feels like there's, there's somebody who is elevated above me and they're always gonna say, stay elevated above me. And they, um, honestly, coaching without caring is, um. It, it, it just feels insensitive and, um, you know, someone's lording it over me. Yeah. Um, they're more, they're, they're more concerned about position and power than they are about the people that are involved. I, uh, I, I remember years ago I had a, a boss, um. In my work at a, at a camp where he just said, he just kept saying the phrase, uh, to me as a leader. He says, show love, not importance. You don't need to elevate your position, um, for people to, uh, to respect you. And, and you need to show them love. And um, and he was, was really good at that. So I, I think to go back to it, like coaching and caring, like they just, they have to be together.'cause if not, um, it feels very sterile. Yeah. I, I'm kind of hearing you say to Cliff that if we don't have this aspect of caring and, and you know, if we are showing importance, not love, I, I like that phrase. Then in, in essence, even if we come with good intentions into a place of, Hey, I want to coach you, it's going to show up much more. Like, look at me. I know what's best. You better change or else, right. Am I, and I feel that way often. Hmm. Yeah. So how does that impact then? The, the other side of the conversation, how does that impact this person we're trying to coach, especially if we're showing up with good intentions, right? And we're not intentionally, you know, trying to show up in this dominant form. How, how are they impacted? What does that, what does that look like? I, the, the thing is that conversation, the conversation with them has to happen, you know, in, in a work environment, you know, there's a, maybe it's a quality of work that's missing. And in, in the case that I have, I'm, I'm currently dealing with a situation with somebody that, that works under me, who is, you know, and struggling in some very specific areas. And, and this is a very strong. Person, very dominant person. And, and so I'm, I'm having to try to coach this person through, um, how they interact with other people. So the, that the people that, that this particular employee interacts with come back and, and just say, you know, this, this person is very difficult to work with. They don't respect me. They don't care for me. Um, yeah. And, uh, and so as, as I coach her through things, I, I'm really stopping to say, you know, number one, that first thing is how is she gonna receive it? What are, what is, how does. Her love languages. How do her love languages work? Yeah. Um, but I'm really keeping in the back of my mind like what is best for her and, and how do I phrase these things and frame them in such a way that she sees this as self-improvement for her. Yeah. Um. That, that she still really sees. The end result is, Hey, if, if I'm willing to go through some of these hard steps that he's coaching me on, um, they're really gonna make me a better leader. And, and I'm going to, you know, see this. So as I'm kind of thinking out loud with you here, Zach, I, part of me. Says, um, in that process, we have to start to show them the end result that, Hey, if, if you're willing to go through these things, let, let me show you how much your world is going to expand and grow and get better because of it. Yeah. So they can see the, you know, the benefit of, of going through some of the pain that they're gonna have to go through to get there. Yeah. So, so I think we also would have to spend some time then almost in, in reflection ourselves, so that. Because if we can't describe that place that they're gonna get to Right, they won't see it. Right. And so will they not see the value? So is it, do we have to spend time then in self-reflection to, to be able to get to that place? Yeah, a hundred percent. You're, you're, you're right on, on that. Hmm. Um, and, and some of it, so one of the things that I, I have, uh, been able to do is. As I kinda develop these working relationships with people, um. I've often been able to connect someone, uh, in my own mind with somebody else in my history. And when I say as I'm talking to this person, oh goodness, this, this really reminds me of, you know, when I talk to my sister and how my sister, you know, and I know if I talk this way to my sister, it's gonna get a bad response. If I, if I, you know, talk this way to my sister, it's going to have a good response. So, so it helps me as like. Kind of draw upon past experiences with other people that are some similar personality types. Um, you know, to know first off, don't do this. You know, whatever you do, don't say this. Um, and um, and I found that incredibly helpful. Yeah. Um, in, in that same vein, I, I, I wonder, this is a little bit of a, of a shift here, but. In this process of going from being self-centered to focused on others, other centered uhhuh, you know, and you mentioned, and I think you're right in that a lot of people have this idea of, we, I don't wanna hurt them. Um, sometimes we do hurt them, right? Right. What we're saying is painful to hear a lot of the time, right? So how do we, when we're making that shift, are, are we just reminding ourselves that, Hey, I know this might hurt them, but it's for their best. How do we go through that process of becoming others focused, but also okay with the fact that we might hurt them? Okay. This is amazing. So, uh, I am, I'm gonna take you back to a, uh, um, in the Bible, Proverbs 27. Uh. Has this great verse that says, faithful are the wounds of a friend. Yeah. But deceitful are the kisses of an enemy. Yeah. Um, another version says wounds from a friend can be trusted. Yeah. Um, and, and I did a, a talk years ago when I was working at camp and, and talking to teenagers and I, and I did a whole talk on this of why confrontation is important and, and. And I, and I talked about this verse and, and just how important it is to not hold, you know, really just hide things, but to say, Hey, I'm gonna, I'm gonna speak this truth, uh, to this person in love. And, and so I talked about this verse, and, and a, a youth pastor comes up to me afterwards. He says, cliff, here's how I phrase it. He says, A true friend will always stab you in the front. And, uh, you know, they're not gonna stab you in the back. Like they're going to, they're gonna be standing there. And obviously this can, you know, get a bit grotesque. We're not stabbing anybody. Um, uh. But when, when we realize, and especially as the receiver of that painful thing, yeah. That this person cares enough for me and loves me enough, uh, to share this feedback with me. And, and I don't know, even maybe in the midst of having these hard conversations with people of, of, of entering the danger, we need to allow ourselves to receive. Feedback from them. Maybe not in that moment. Um, but, but they need to have that comfort to be able to come, come to us and, and say, Hey, you know, the way that, that you're leading this team in this specific area is, is really like the team's kind of struggling with it. You know, can, can we receive feedback as leaders and I, and I think if we can, then the people that we're working with are very much open to it as well. Yeah. What has to happen because it can be scary and, and I know this, you know, from experience on both sides, it can be scary to go to your boss and say, this isn't great. Yeah. What has to happen to build teams in such a way that, that, that is, I, I hesitate to stay comfortable, but, but yeah. Accepted and normalized. Right. Right. Um. Here's what we did in our organization. Um, and it was, it was based upon something I, I experienced at the previous place where I had, uh, been involved in Ministry Place You're familiar with, uh, we had a, a leadership team years ago there that was kind of falling apart and we were actually in the middle of a leadership retreat and. All chaos broke loose, and people were yelling at each other and confronting each other in a very unloving ways. And this is at a, at a Christian ministry. Um, and, and I remember that very same mentor of mine, the guy that confronted me, you know, years ago on a specific issue. And, you know, that was holding me back from a promotion, but he kinda stopped the whole thing. He says, we need to, everybody stop. And, and, uh. He walked us through this process and, and, and it's something I'll never forget. Um, and this was a months long process that all started at this retreat when, when things kind of fell apart. Um, but in that process, he. Created a covenant between all of us as leaders and how we would interact with each other. And this leadership team had multiple levels from the, the very top dog, middle management down to the lowly, what we used to call assistant supervisors. You know, they, yeah, they were, these were the people that were promoted just so that they didn't have to pay them overtime anymore. Um. And, uh, um, but he created this covenant between all of us. And we even got these symbolically, we got these swords Yeah. That we hung on our walls in our offices. But it, and, and there was a little Latin phrase that went with it. Memento Maori. Remember that I must, I must die. And it was like this, like I'm gonna put my own. Personal needs behind me. I'm going to have the back of the person with me and, uh, that I'm, that I'm working with. And, and so with it, it created a culture of safe confrontation. And, and I remember I literally walked into, um. A guy who knew you, you know, into his office one day with my sword. And I put my sword down and I said, I need to have a sword conversation. And he kinda looks at me a little quizzically. Uh, and, and I, I said, you know, you said this one particular thing and this one meeting, and I felt like it was, it was outta line. Um, I'm, there's no way I'm ever gonna confront you in front of a bunch of other people, but you need to hear this. And, and he's somebody that level wise in the organization was above me. Yeah. And, and so I said that and he said, thank you, cliff. I, I, I just so appreciate how you said that. And, and it changed like the, the action changed from there. And so we had this culture. Where a person above was willing to receive feedback from someone below. Yeah. Because we knew the, the, the, the ground rules were basically, I'm gonna trust that, that this person on our team has my best interest in mind. Yeah. And so I actually brought that to the church where I am now. Several years ago, about 10 years ago, we sat down and we created the same thing.'cause I was sitting in my office one day and. In the hallway are two of our other pastors at our church having this massive argument yelling at each other. Yeah. Where the entire, everyone could hear these two yelling at each other. Yeah. And, and we realized that we had, um, siloed in our organization. Different departments had siloed and, and there were underlying frustrations. And so we went away to a retreat and we created a covenant, um, on our team. And part of that covenant was, um. Um, we, we created an acronym and one of the, uh, piece acronym was an E, which was Embrace the Truth. And that is, if I'm gonna be on this team, I'm willing to embrace the truth. Yeah. Um, and it goes both ways. So if I'm gonna give the truth, I've gotta be able to receive the truth. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I love that, that, thank you for sharing. I, I, um, I can't overstate as well the importance that I've seen. I typically call'em team norms, but I like the term of a covenant where like you just have stuff that's established. This is how we're gonna behave. Yeah. And if you don't behave this way, then you don't belong on the team. Well, right. And, and you know, Zach, I know you do a lot of consulting and in, in, in your world you would, you would call these core values. Um, they, these are, these are things that become, these, these core parts of, you know, your team can have core values. Yeah. And you know, sometimes it's pursuing excellence and this and that, but you know, in our case it was, oh, we need to learn how to embrace truth. We all throw through another core value in there. Welcome the future. And that was like, Hey, we're willing to embrace change. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Let me ask this, cliff. Is it possible to. Let me ask this instead,'cause I don't wanna ask close questions. How do we, if, if we don't have these, um, covenants or team norms, core values, you know, if we don't have those, let's say I work for someone, I don't have the authority to create those, can I still create an environment in which conflict is and entering the danger is normalized or, or is that something that's kind of reserved for people who are in authority? No, you, you, absolutely, I think you, you can and you must. And if it's something that's a conviction in your life of, of being important, then that's something that you need to act on. And, and so, you know, I think it, it starts, you know, you can call this the concept of leading up, right? Yeah. Um. So you, you usually do that through your example. And, and I think the biggest fear that we have is, you know, we can have this conversation and somebody that's listening along goes, oh, okay. And they walk into their boss and they just lay into their boss the next day about everything that, that he or she is doing. Yeah. You know, that's not working and that's, that's obviously not what we're saying at all. Yeah. You know, if anything there's, before I'm gonna go, you know, let's say confront somebody that's above me about, about something I like to ask a, a question, you know, first off, is that thing that, um, I'm gonna talk to them about a right or wrong issue? Or is it a procedural issue? Yeah. Because if it's procedural, I probably just need to get over it. Yep. Um, and, and. And say, you know, they just have a different way of doing things and you know, maybe at the right time and as the conversation comes up, we could talk about it, uh, maybe if there's an opportunity. Um, but it's, you know, it's not a com confrontational kind of thing versus a right and wrong issue. I have a friend that works for a, a major, uh, big three consulting firm and, and. You know, and he had strong conviction about ethically, how they were operating in his environment. And so he had to go in there and, and, and lay that out because it was a, it was definitely a, a moral issue. Yeah. A right versus wrong versus, like I say, procedural. So I think we have to discern the le the levels of importance and sometimes we think that those. This thing that we have, that we think is so important really is not a matter of right and wrong, it's just a Yeah. You know, I, I like it better that way. I, I wonder, I, I ask this question sometimes that, that, do we, do we expect that or do we think that our leaders are leading in the way that they want to? Mm-hmm. Because I think that often we have that expectation that, that everything they do is intentional and, and deliberate and exactly the way they want. And so we have this hesitation, I think, to go and talk to'em. But, but in reality, I found that's not actually true. And, and, and our leaders like everyone else have blind spots and they do things without realizing. Is that, have you, have you. Seeing that play out in your life? And if so, is like, how do we encourage people and, and how would we approach that conversation with a boss? Like, do we,'cause we still wanna be respectful of their position, um, and not just say, ah, you're doing this wrong. Stop it. What, what would that look like? Yeah. As, as you were saying that I, uh. I, uh, I wrote down the word empathy. Yeah. On, uh, a piece of paper here. I just, I, how important is that to, to stop and to put yourself in their position for a moment and to realize they may be dealing with. 10 or 12 other things that I'm not seeing. So I have to really put myself before I go talk to somebody in a position to say, I, I understand 2% of this person's world. Yeah. Um, I, you know, I am, I'm one of eight people that they supervise or, you know, something like that. Yeah. And, and so in. When you walk into that conversation, I think you have to walk into that conversation. Um, and I don't know if apologetically is the right word, but you have to walk in with sensitivity to say, I really, I, I, I wanna recognize right off the bat, I don't understand everything that happens in your world. And yeah, there are things that are all around, so I can only speak to the thing that I'm dealing with and, and you've really gotta keep it to that'cause boy. The, the problem though, and this is the human problem, is we are all having conversations over to the side about this boss. Yeah. Nobody's going and talking to them. Yeah. But then suddenly you've developed this consensus with all of your peers, um, about the way this boss should be doing things when nobody has talked to them. Yeah. So, so you really have to walk in with empathy and, and also you can only, you use the details that involve you. Yeah. And. Something that you've personally observed. So you have to be objective and, and not just say, well, everybody thinks that you are doing this wrong. That doesn't work. Yeah. I I'm hearing you as you're talking, it, it, it's linking me back to earlier in our conversation. It, it really is about being other centered, you know, when you're talking about empathy, right? What are they going through? What's happening? We, we have. It's just so normal to think everyone's thinking about us and everything's about me and, and look at me. But I think through this process of becoming other centered and as we're we gain the skill of empathy and we're able to care about others more, I think we're able to, as you said, put ourselves in their shoes and that becomes easier over time. Am I, am I on track there? Cliff. Oh yeah. You're, you're totally on track. And, and, and here's the thing is if we find, if we develop relationship with that person that 95% of the time does not involve any kind of confrontational words whatsoever, then, then that gives us the, the latitude to be able to have those conversations when they're necessary. If, if we're just someone that is that constant drip. Walking in, every time something goes wrong or something, you know there's a problem and that person will tune out every word we say. Yeah, I mean, I, I had that when, when I worked at this camp, um, one of my, uh. Jobs was to work with all the youth leaders that were bringing their, their students to camp. And there were certain ones that I know every year, year after year, they were gonna walk up to me and they were gonna tell me all of the critiques for camp for that week. Well, that was a person that I just tuned them out. Yeah. Versus the person that's every year, oh Cliff, this is the best thing ever and this is going so well. And then one year they go, Hey, can I talk to you about this? I go, you better believe you can. Yeah. Um. Yeah. So we gotta be careful not to be that drip drip. Yeah. Drip, drip cliff. How do we balance that with this idea? So, so to kind of go back to what you were saying just a few minutes ago, you know, we talk about like, everyone's been talking about the leader off to the side and they haven't been talking right directly to them. And I think that happens often when I was. Boss, I would see people not doing things. And so I'd tell'em once, Hey, that's not the right way to do it. Like we do it this way instead. And then I'd see them doing it again. I'd go straight home, I'd tell my wife or I'd tell my best friend or I'd tell anyone but them. Right, right, right. And then I'm building up this resentment over time'cause they're not doing it right. And I told them, what the heck is going on? Yeah. And I say that to highlight this fact that we need to be consistent in those, in those moments. How do we do that and be consistent in, Hey, remember this? Well, not being that person, that's always been the drip, drip, drip, as you said. Right. Well, and I think you keep it to the issue. Um. You know, you, you keep it specific. And so when you have to go back and it's the exact same thing, like that's, you, you can go back to that because it's a, it's a known issue. Yeah. And, and hopefully the first, and maybe second time when you talked about it, you brought up specifics about it and in such a way that you said. When this happens again, you know, you're, you know, here are the consequences. Here's the, the result, or here's how I'm gonna respond. So that they know going into whatever that is like, like this is, this is it. Versus, you know, you throwing the whole everything at them. Yeah. Including the kitchen sink. Right. When it, it all gets lost. So I, I, I think you just have to keep it narrow and specific. Am I right in thinking as well that if we, if we are able to be, um, if we are able to keep, be narrow and consistent, as you said, not only does that help them.'cause I think our assumption is if we hear about it once and we, and we don't again, oh, I, I'm fixed now. I did it. I'm doing it right now. Right. I think that's our assumption. And so if we are, if we are doing that, it helps them know, actually it hasn't been fixed, but I, I think it also, as I kind of mentioned it, it keeps us from becoming bitter, right? Because am I off base in that, in that if we don't address it No. Then, then that they'll, instead of the thing they did was bad, they become a bad person. Am I off base there? Right? No, you're, you're right on because you, you, you, it's easy to start to build up bitterness, resentment, frustration, and. Oftentimes it's, you know, if you just simply say it, you get it out there, you can deal with it. And, and sometimes there are, there are people that we have to realize, like the process that they are in, in their lives, in, in the specific areas, like I'll be really transparent that I was getting confronted on years ago, had to do with a very quick temper how I responded to people. Um, I would. When my boss would say, Hey, I want you to do this. I would, if I didn't respect that boss, I would often just ignore them and not do it because I didn't have a respect for that person. And, and so when, when Big Boss came to me with all these things, um, you know, he was very specific with it. And, and he says, here, here are the issues. And, and he also, but he characterized, he says, I know this is a struggle. And we have to, you know, realize like we're all people that are in process. And so as I'm working with someone who is, you know, quote unquote a repeat offender, um, if, if they're going to acknowledge that it's a struggle. And, and we can create a path and say, okay, so next time this comes up, let's, you know, it's like being a parent, Zach. Yeah. You know, Hey, the next time this comes up, uh, let's put together a solution for this. Yeah. You know, when this comes up again, because, because I can tell you, you know, back then in my twenties I was going to, there was going to be another point in time where I was going to ignore my boss and not do what they said. You know? Yeah. So, um, so if. We can have, you know, some set consequences, for lack of a better word, um, and set up that, you know, the next time we walk into the situation, it's, it's straight out and, and approached. Well then, um, you know, I think we're, we're helping them in their process. Yeah. Um, but sometimes if we fail to, sometimes we think, okay, just because I confronted them and talked to them about it, they're gonna fix it and it's instantly gone. Yeah. When that could be an internal struggle in their lives. Yeah. Um, Zach, this one, this is a freebie. Great. And I know you know this greatest strength is someone's off is often someone's greatest weakness. Yeah. Yeah. And. I can't help but see that in one person I, I work with right now, this person is, and I'm not going to tell this person that I did this podcast, um,'cause they'll know exactly who I'm talking about. Um, but this person is one of the strongest, most get it done. People that I've. And that's why I hired this person. Yeah. Because there were some areas I was not getting the job done, and I needed someone who could follow through and, and be an enforcer and, you know, just not let anything sit on their desk. And, and this person is that person. This person also runs over people. Yeah, yeah. Right. Totally. Yep. And, and so like, I have to look at it and go, okay, you're, you're doing exactly what I asked you to, and. Methodically, some things are struggles, so let's, yeah, let's figure out how to keep this and bring this up to, to the spot where, you know, yeah. The people skills. Um, but you can still get it done. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's, um, I love that reminder that, that I, I mean, that's totally true for me, right? I, I, I generally am, I'm pretty good at asking questions and I can be thoughtful and considerate. Um, and I can see the nuance easily, but I also get so stuck in the nuance and I can be really hesitant to act.'cause I can see, well, what about this and what about this and what about this? And so I can move really, really slowly when I need to just act with, with decisiveness. So yeah, it's, it's um, it's unfortunate. Hey, cliff, I I, I've really enjoyed this conversation. We're starting to run low on time. I'd love to jump, right? Oh my goodness. All right. I, I'll do my best. Great. I tried to listen to several others and I'm like, okay. I don't know if I have a que answer for that one or not, but We'll, uh, no worries. We'll see how we do. We, I'll, we, uh, we'll give you grace probably, and if not all right, then, uh, I'll, I'll send you a strongly wedd letter or something. I don't know. Wouldn't, wouldn't be the first one. Uh, your favorite leadership quote. Oh, my favorite leadership, um. The one I said earlier, show love, not importance. Yeah. Um, that was, that was one. I'm gonna throw another one in there for you. Um, it, uh, it came from a book I read years ago and I don't remember it right off the bat, but it is, um. Should I seek out great things, seek them not, and it's a, it's a quote about elevating yourself too high. Yeah. And, um, and so it's kinda humbling yourself and allowing God to lift you up Yeah. In his time, rather than putting yourself on a pedestal. Yep. What's one underrated skill in leadership listening, your favorite author? Oh, uh, you know who I, Philipp? Yancy? Yep. Uh, and I'll tell you, I, I am sorry. I gotta do a story even though it's lightning around. No, it's fine. Because Philippian drives me absolutely batty. And, and I'll read a book of his and in one chapter I'm just all excited and, and, and learned all these things. And then the next chapter, I'm angry and, um,'cause I just, his perspective on something is not mine and back and forth, back and forth and Yeah. And yet one of his books, what's so amazing about Grace just rocked me. Yeah. And, um. So I really resonate with it. And then I, I accidentally ended up in an elevator with him years ago, shortly after I'd read What's so Amazing about Grace and I was so starstruck that I couldn't say a word. So he's a very short man, I'll tell you that much. Yeah. Uh, I love it. Thanks for the story, the most frustrating excuse someone can make for not entering the danger. I'm too busy. Yep. Your favorite question to ask other people, who are you? Ooh, that's good. What's something you do to make sure that you're always learning? Um, reading podcasts, um, conversations with people. Yep. Do you have a favorite podcast? I've, I have been Okay, Zach, for two months. I have been debating whether to bring this one up. So, um, I, I have a podcast I listen to. I don't recommend this to people. Okay. Um, but I love it. It's called Wolf Untamed and it is, uh, Derrick Wolf is the, uh, was a defensive lineman for the Denver Broncos, and so he's just this tough. Tough, bad guy. And uh, um, so, you know, if, if you can't handle profanity, like do not listen to this podcast. Yeah.'cause it's just full of it. Okay. But he has na, he has tough people on like Navy Seals and Yeah. And these people that, you know, go out and live in the woods by themselves for two, three weeks. Yeah. And. What I like is, um, there are all these, these people that he interviews are people with a lot of grit and so I, I love looking and going, you know, for somebody like me that I just enjoy eating ice cream and, you know. Watching TV shows, like yeah. Somebody that really is disciplined and all the things that they've done to live that disciplined life. It's fun to listen to. So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So there're big asterisk on that one. Great. Uh, a book that you keep rereading the Bible. Yep. Uh, I can never, never, you know, read through it several times and, and something new every time. Yeah. What's a quality that you see in others that makes you excited to get to know them? I would say, uh, self-awareness. Yeah. Uh, your favorite way to build trust with other people. Transparency by, um, by showing weakness and, uh, yeah. And that, that opens them up to trust too. Yep. Uh, how does gratitude impact your life? It is it, oh man, you know, with, without thankfulness, without gratitude, like we're, we're just kind of selfish. Uh, we don't, we, we think that we're all that and we, you know, when you get down to it, we're not all that. Yeah. And, and I could not be where I am if it wasn't for the grace of God, if it wasn't for an amazing wife, you know, my wife and Yeah. And, you know, and you could, you could ask a hundred people that knew me before we, April and I got married. Um, I'm a very different person than I was Yeah. Uh, before her. And, and so, you know, gratefulness. You're just, I, I know. I think without gratitude you're selfish. Yeah. Yep. I love it. Uh, how do you stay sharp at work, cliff? Oh, man. I have a standup desk. I, I sit to stand desk. Yeah. So I, uh, I, I make sure to get off the chair and stand up and walk around a little bit and, um, uh, on a good day. Uh, I-M-B-W-A you right. Management by walking around. Yep. And, uh, that, that keeps me sharp getting out and knowing what's going on when I'm just locked in my office and doing things. I don't, I'm not aware of what's going on. Yeah. In the, around the organization. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. What do you do to rest? I sleep, I, uh, I, I, I, I, I, I don't know, a doctor might say that I'm sedentary, but, uh, rest to me is really slowing down. Like, um, whether it's going for a walk, my wife and I walk our dogs together in the evening and that just, um, kind of rest my mind. But I also love to just. Like sit and, and last week we were in Hawaii and I would just sit for an hour and look out over the ocean, you know? Yeah. That's, that's rest. So yeah. Yeah. I love it. Uh, last question here, cliff. Uh, is white chocolate really chocolate? Ah, absolutely not. Yeah. Um, but I, it is a gateway drug. Yep. So, so white, white chocolate was my entry into coffee and Okay. And, and it, it was years ago when I did not drink coffee. Um, and ironically it was April, my wife, who was running a coffee shop at the time, and, and I remember saying to her, I mean this was long before she and I even dated. I remember saying to her one day, I'm like, I don't like coffee. And she says, then you should drink a white chocolate mocha. And she makes me this white chocolate mocha. And I'm like, that's amazing. And then slowly I worked my way to half white, half regular. Yeah. You know, so it was like a, they called it a black and white. And then eventually I went to the full mocha, and then I started doing coffee with creamer. And then coffee with cream. And now I'm trying to wean myself with the cream. So white chocolate is a gateway drug. There. There we go. I love it. That's not really, I it sounds real chocolate. Nobody else has answered that, have they? No. They, they still haven't. No. Uh, hey, uh, cliff, I'm super grateful for you to joining me on the podcast. Thank you so much. Um, thank you, sir. Is there anything you are working on that you'd like to, to shout out? And if people wanna get ahold of you, how can they do that? Um, what am I working on these days? I'm, uh, oh, I'm thinking about getting back into the bagpipes. Um, yeah, so I, I played the bagpipes when I was in high school, and so I have this old set of bagpipes I'm gonna send away and get worked on and by myself, a new kilt. And, uh, so I think that's my outside of work project right now is let's get these bagpipes going again. And, uh, um, let's see. I'm on, uh, Instagram, cliff Carey, and, uh, I hardly post anything, so it's really not worth looking at. Um, but you can, uh, email me at cliff@jccarey.com and, uh, I'd be happy to, to interact with people that way too. Awesome. Awesome. Thanks again so much, cliff. It's been a pleasure. I hope you have a great day. Thank you, Zach. What a, what a joy. Thanks for having me. Okay, bye. What an awesome conversation. I'm really grateful to Cliff for joining me on the podcast for this month's episode. I hope that you learn as much from it as I did. My guest next month is my friend Dr. Marcus Carlson. Dr. Carlson works with churches. He helps churches turn around if there's been some kind of severe moral failure or. Church split, anything really significant, he goes in and helps turn the church around, so he lives in the danger that this podcast is based on. I'm so excited for that conversation. As I've mentioned, it's going to be the last episode, next month's episode with Marcus will be the last episode before we pause. I'm hopeful to bring it back, as I said, but, but really unsure if I will. Thank you all so much for joining me this month on the Enter The Danger Podcast. I really appreciate you being here with me, and I'm grateful for your time. If you enjoyed the podcast, I'd also appreciate it if you left a review or rate it wherever you consume your podcasts. But more than that, I'd really appreciate it if you shared the podcast with someone else. If you have any advice to me, I'd love to hear from you. You can email me at Zach. That's Zac c@zwilcoxconsulting.com. That's also my website, z wilcox consulting.com, or you could call me at(559) 387-6436. I also take texts if you don't like to call or if you just wanna talk about entering the danger as well and what that means, how to implement that in a better way in your own life. Please let me know. I'd love to connect and chat. I love meeting new people. I love talking about this topic of entering the danger. Thank you friends for being here again. Until next time, let's remember to choose kindness. Empathy and curiosity.