Dathan Brown - Former Executive Director of Hume Ministries

This month I'm releasing an episode I recorded a while ago with my friend Dathan Brown.

Dathan passed suddenly last year and I'm honored and privileged to be able to release our conversation together.

Transcript

0:12

Hello friends, my name is Zach and welcome to the Enter the Danger Podcast. Before we get into the content this month, I wanted to share with you all that I'm gonna be pausing the podcast for the foreseeable future. I've recorded a few episodes already, but I'm not gonna be recording anything new for a while. As many of you know, I've been consulting now for every over five years, and I've really enjoyed every moment of it. I was asked recently to join an organization that I love in an industry that I love as a leadership in a leadership role, and I've decided to accept that. So while I transition into that role, I'm gonna be putting all of my focus and energy there, which is why I'm pausing the podcast. I might restart it again, I don't wanna promise that I'm doing that, but I might restart it again. It really has been such a joy for me to host this podcast over the last couple of years. I've learned so much from it, and I really hope that all of you have. Well, all right, that's the housekeeping for today. So let's move on to this month's episode. As I mentioned at the last, at the end of last month's episode, my guest this month is Dahan Brown, who passed away, suddenly lost you. This conversation really is such a great example of day's, generosity, his kindness, faith, and his constant pursuit of Christ. He was such a wonderful role model and a mentor for so many people, and I'm really excited to share this conversation with you. So let's jump into it. hi, David. So glad to have you here. Thanks for joining me today. Well, thank you. It's great to join you. I'm on, I'm honored. Um, I've got a couple questions, um, that I'd like to ask you, um, just to help the listeners get to know you a little bit. Um, I know I've had the pleasure of knowing you for seven, eight years, something like that now. Um, but I'd like to stop there if that's okay. Absolutely. Wonderful. Um, so first of all, what is one high impact event that got you to where you are? Hmm. Yeah, I think, um, I think that, uh, when I was about to graduate from seminary, I had a decision of where I would go and what I would do in life. And I remember, um, getting in my lime green Volkswagen Bug and I was at Liberty University at the time in the seminary, Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary. And I remember getting in my Volkswagen Bug and driving and I turned on the radio and I heard a guy named Charles Stanley, and he was someone that I heard once in a while, but it wasn't like I was a regular listener. And he said, You know, a lot of people are willing to give 95% of themselves to the Lord. And then he drew this, que these questions, are you willing to go anywhere, do anything at any time? And uh, to follow Jesus. And basically at that point I began, I was wrestling with the decision of where to go and what to do, and that helped me. Which eventually led me to, um, to go all the way across the country, uh, to California from Virginia. And, uh, that's where I became a, uh, a pastoral intern with, uh, Chuck Swindall, who was at the, uh, at the first Evangelical Free Church of Fullerton. And it was in that year, in 19 92, 93 that I met my now wife, uh, Sherry Brown. And, um, I started in pastoral ministry and I think that, uh, that co or that interface with life, um, I think helped turn me in a direction that, um, that I've been so thankful and blessed that I did. Yeah, yeah. Great. Thank you for sharing. Um, As a, as a follow on from that. Um, and I think you may have highlighted one already in that story. Um, but who are three high impact people that have helped you grow into the person that you are? Hmm. Well, uh, I, I would say my parents, right? Uh, my mom and my dad, you know, my dad was a faithful pastor throughout his whole adult life in only two churches. Uh, rural church in a town of a thousand in upstate New York. And then, uh, when I went off to college, uh, my parents moved to Northwest Indiana. And, you know, um, my dad never wrote a book and he wasn't on the radio and he wasn't famous, but they were faithful and, um, you know, at, at both of their, uh, funerals, um, in separate timing and separate situations. It was amazing the amount of people that came to those funerals. My, my mom's funeral heard people lined up outside of the funeral home. Um, Not because she was well known, but she was known in the area that she lived in for caring for people and loving Jesus and for praying for people, and so, uh, absolutely couldn't answer that question without adding both my mom and my dad. They're both with the Lord now and I'm so grateful. You know, in fact, um, I've got a brother and two sisters just about all sorts of people in our, um, family are in the ministry. And, uh, we're just grateful for, um, seeing Christianity played out and lived in front of our lives. Uh, so one, I kind of added two there, but, uh, be my parents. Second of all, um, I would have to say, Um, oh, there was a man named Paul Saham. I mentioned a moment ago that I went to, um, the first Evangelical Free Church of Fullerton to do a pastoral internship with Chuck Swindall. Uh, he had a program, he had a, a, a a a situation where, uh, He would take two seminary graduates each year and for about a school year you would just basically have opportunity to hang out and, and that sort of thing. And so, um, Chuck was very kind to me and I appreciate it very much, but the person, uh, that really led that program was, um, his closest ministry associate at the time, Paul Sale, ammer, and Paul was the senior associate. At the first Evangelical Free Church of Fuller, Tim and Paul invited me, uh, as it were into his life and into his home. And, uh, I got to know his family, his two boys, uh, Paul began in that season in life, uh, to begin walking and taking, uh, you know, regular walks around. Fullerton. Um, and, and then, uh, even some longer walks. I remember walking with Paul, uh, from Fullerton, California to Newport Beach, which was over 26 miles one day. Okay? And so, literally and figuratively, I began to walk through life, uh, with Paul Sale Hammer for over 30 years. He passed away this last year. But he and I, uh, had opportunity to build relationships. I would say he was my closest mentor outside my father, and, uh, I'm so in Incre, incredibly appreciative. He was a, a strong leader. He was theological, he was bright. He could talk a reader, he could talk on all sorts of different topics, but he cared. To find out what's interested, what, what I was interested in, with what other people were interested in, and really begin to explore that and just develop solid relationship. So early on in that relationship, I, I, uh, I made a decision that if I ever have opportunity to spend time with Paul Sale Hammerer, I would jump on it, and I did, and I'm so grateful for that. Oh man. Now the third one, and that's the tough one because I have several, right? I mean, I already mentioned Cox Window, I mentioned others, but my goodness. Um, oh, let's see. Um, oh, uh, I am grateful in my life to have come into contact with people who had big vision. Uh, when I was a kid, I grew up in a small farming community, uh, called Marathon, New York, and uh, it was a town of about about a thousand. And so when I went off to Liberty University, even back in the day, the school was bigger than my whole town. And I remember, um, hearing in chapel and interfacing and later. In my days there, getting to know the late, uh, Jerry Falwell Sr. I never met a person in my life, uh, who's had a bigger vision, uh, for what God might do. I remember, um, I was there in the early eighties. The school started in 71, but I remember him regularly talking about wanting to build a university that would be for evangelicals, what. Brigham Young might be for Mormons and what Notre Dame might be for Catholic students and saying that our desire is to compete, uh, at the division one sports and football. Um, and one day meet beat Notre Dame. And, uh, that's, um, all well and good, but the school had only started like, um, 11 years earlier, and their sports program started, from what I understand, out of the trunk of the car of a former major league pitcher, Al Worthington, like with bases and bats. I don't, I think they played in a local public park, right? And so to see the vision of Jerry Falwell and not a senior in not just building an athletic department, which by the way, lasts. Uh, football season, they beat Brigham Young, um, in a, in a football game, and they're divi. Uh, they're competing now at the division one level in all the sports, but also to train young champions for Christ who, no matter what field they go into, whether it be missionaries, pastors, doctors, lawyers, teachers, um, whatever the field might be that you not just do an excellent job. At work, but you also live life on purpose and you make a difference for the kingdom. I think that was a profound time in my period or or time in my life where I really began to see a vision and to get excited about what God is doing in this world and how he might want to use me. Yeah. Thank you for, thank you for sharing those. Um, I love hearing stories about people and, and how they're shaped and, and the, the people that have come around them. Um, can you share, um, let's just say one story about, um, one of those three people and, and how they've shaped your life. One specific story, um, specifically if you can, about how they've entered into the danger with you and how that impacted you when they were able to enter the danger with you and say something difficult or call you out in some area. Hmm. Yeah. Let's see. Um, I just, I just remember, um, I re I mean I've got stories on all of them, right? Yeah. Um, good stories. Yeah. Of huge life impact. But I remember, um, I remember. Going to Paul Sale Hammerer, because I was wrestling with a decision about becoming the executive director at Hum, lake Christian Camps. And, uh, I met with the chairman of the board for lunch, um, towards the end of a week and summer was about, well, right around the corner. Right. So, and, and they had made a leadership change and I had lunch and about an hour into that lunch. The man I was meeting with, the chairman of the board said, Hey, let me switch hats for a moment. I'm the chairman of the Board of Hum, lake Christian Camps, and I knew him already. We were friends, but he said, you know, we're, um, we're, uh, Wondering if you would be interested in applying to be the interim executive director at Hume Lake. Uh, and that's back in nine, in, uh, 2013. He said, but I kind of need to know if you're interested by today at five o'clock. And I said, well, I need to go talk to my wife. And, uh, anyway, uh, it was a one year interim role. Which ended up becoming long term. But I remember hearing in that job, uh, and it sounds like it might be a trait thing, but you see, you gotta realize Hume is located in the mountains surrounded by millions and millions of acres of raw wilderness, you know, with bears and mountain lions and all sorts of things. And I remember hearing. Um, that you could not have a dog in that context, right? Not because they were against dogs by any means, but because of safety, not wanting to attract certain wild animals into the camp, and also because dogs. Many of'em are wellbe behaved, but some bark in the middle of the night. Right. And there's several thousand people, um, in the summer sleeping there and um, trying to get a good night, re rest and all that. And dog could bite. And, you know, if a dog bites in your town, probably the town's not gonna get sued. But in that situation, the camp might, right? And so, The problem was that I had, um, Sherry and I had two little girls and one of our girls, um, actually bold, but one of'em in particular was like praying that we might be able to get a dog. And we had been talking that, you know what? Pray that, um, dad finds a job. I remember praying this, that my dad will find the job and I'll get a dog. And here we are given this opportunity to, to. Take on the executive director, c e o role at Hume. And then I'm sitting there going, oh, I don't want my little girl, Emily, to think, gosh, God answers my dad's prayers, but not my prayers. And so, um, you know, we're trying to sort that out and wrestle with it. And I remember, I remember sitting down with Paul at his home and just talking that over with him. Right. Which he said, why don't you involve Emily and Amanda into the conversation? And so I remember, uh, and obviously go to God in prayer and seek wisdom and you know, there's a big picture here and all, all of those types of things, right. I remember Sherry and I sat down on the living room floor with Emily and Amanda, who were pretty young at the time. It said, we've been given this incredible opportunity. To work at a place that you've been to before where there's swimming pools and ice cream shop and they're go, is it hum Blake? Yes, it is. And uh, but we said, you know what, there's one hard thing and that is we couldn't get a dog if we move there. And I think God just gave us, um, kind of just smiled and just, um, uh, and, and just give us, gave us a little bit of extra grace because they, they said, oh, don't worry, dad. We're fine. We love him. Like, and we were so grateful. Yeah. Um, and for that wisdom, right? It was just real life stuff. With Paul. Right. It wasn't a major crisis or anything, but it was important because we wanted to not only seek God's will for our life, but to be good. To be good parents. Yeah. And to help develop and shape our kids. Yeah. My, my parents were very similar in that whenever there was big life events, they tried to include us. I'm sure that they wouldn't, that in some ways they had. Probably made decisions or, or had an idea of what was right and what they should do, but they still try to include us. Um, and to my recollection, we all, all of us, four kids, I have three siblings, we all kind of said, yes, we want to do what you are suggesting. Um, how, how would you if, if they had said, no, this is terrible. Okay, if we can't get a dog, we have no idea. We don't want to go. How would you have approached that situation? Because that's a pretty tough. Conversation I imagine to have with your kids. Do you have any idea, obviously that didn't happen, but do you have an idea of how you would've approached that? Yeah. Thankfully it didn't happen, right. However, um, you know, I think we would've really tried to talk it through, right? And, um, obviously you, you've gotta be able to have more than just the input of. A, a young elementary student, you know, and that sort of thing. Um, I bet I would've sought more counsel, you know? Um, and, and we would've really wrestled with the decision. And it might have been that we still would've gone, uh, in fact it very likely would've been, but we would've known how to, um, address that and look for wins within, um, Within that, uh, situation for our kids, you know? Um, and we were able to actually find some wins even in that. Talked about dog sitting and doing a couple of other things right, that ended up helping in that circumstance. So, you know, I don't know exactly how that would've turned out, but I think we would've tried to avoid, um, The extreme of just saying, Nope, nope, we're not going. Or also we would've avoided just blowing over the top of them and, um, I think, uh, we would've really been seeking God's wisdom if it had turned out the other way. So, yeah. Yeah. I imagine in a very similar situation. I imagine there's a lot of times over the course of, of both, uh, working at your church, whether you were the associate pastor, um, for youth ministries, and then also, um, at Hume Lake where you had people come and, and enter the danger with you and bring you some kind of difficult news, whether it was, Hey, I don't agree with this decision, or I think you're doing this wrong. Um, and just in this hypothetical situation we, we had with Amanda and Emily where you had to say, no, we're, we're gonna keep doing it. How do you then approach that where it's, it's more of a work setting instead of a family setting and someone's come to you and say, Hey, I disagree with this, you know, whatever it is. But you have to basically say, Hey, I hear you. We've thought about it, we've talked about it, but we're still gonna move forward. Right. Um, Well, obviously in leadership, that type of conversation happens. Yeah. Uh, in every, about every situation, uh, that I've ever been in. And I think it's important. I, I, I, I gained some wisdom from, uh, a man named Wally Norling. He's since passed away, but he was the district superintendent for the Evangelical Free Church denomination in the southwest of the United States. And he said, uh, some wise things, uh, throughout his life. One of'em was, um, don't run from your critics. Run towards them. You know, and so I think it would be really important in that setting to really sit down and listen, right. Um, and, and, and try to understand where they're coming from. And I think that's a, a great start, right? And there's times that if you really listen, you look at it and go, well, they're right. You know? And then you have to, you have to really, um, be humble enough to tweak your plan, right? Or, or to stop your plan. But there's also times, uh, where somebody may come to you and they don't, you know, they might have the best of intentions, but they don't see the big picture. And, and, and you may not be able to share all of the nuances of what's happening. And so, um, you know, uh, you have to move forward. You know, and, and I think just about any leader who led through the Covid period had situations where there were multiple voices coming at them in a lot of different ways and in a lot of different volume levels. Right? And so somehow by God's grace you tried to navigate that and make the best decisions possible. Yeah. It's always wise too, if you've already saw it. Um, good counsel, right? And you're not just waking up one more and going, ah, I think I'm gonna do this. You know, if you've thought through it, if you've wrestled through it, if you've, if you've sought the wisdom of your team often, right? Not always. Sometimes you just have to make a decision, but it's wise, as the Bible says, to seek wise counsel and there's, uh, safety and a multitude of counselors. And so trying to understand so that you have a firm conviction. That, um, no, this is the direction that we need to go, but super, super important to engage the person Yeah. With the promise. And there's times where you say you're wrong and you change. There's other times where you say, you know what? I appreciate your input, but we're gonna continue to move forward. And, and, and possibly you say for these reasons, you know, and, and that sort of thing, but, I, I think it's important to value the person, listen, but also you have to do, um, what you're called to do and how do you, Uh, because obviously it takes a lot of courage and it takes a lot of vulnerability to come. So if you are the executive director, and I had the privilege of working for you at Hume Lake, um, not directly, but I was at Hume Lake, um, for, for some of that time. Um, and I know if I, if I had wanted to come to you with a complaint, it would've been scary for me. It would've been. Nerve-wracking. Um, how do you take that time because you've got a million and a half things to do. How do you take the time to slow down and listen and acknowledge, um, when you're also trying to think about, I've got all of this other stuff to do. H is it difficult when you, when you, maybe you've heard that same frustration a hundred times and maybe you can't give an explanation. How would you kind of approach that? How do you deal with that? Because I imagine that's a pretty tough situation to be in. Yeah, I th I think you have to look at what the situation is, right? Um, because sometimes, uh, it may not be, um, appropriate for, uh, the person to jump over their supervisor and their boss's boss and their boss's boss to go right to, you know, so you have to wrestle with what the situation is, and in that setting, You could sit down with a person and say, Hey, have you had a chance to talk to so-and-so, you know, your boss or, or hr, right? And, and steer him in that direction and say, you know what, why don't you go do that and, uh, let me know how that turns out. Or, um, you know, you cycle back around with hr, you'd cycle back around with that person's boss. Right. Um, and, and you, uh, enter it if it, if it truly is something that, uh, you need to weigh in on. Right. There's a healthy tension here though, because you also, or at least I wanted to in our setting, uh, wanted to, uh, know that people could get to you if they really had an issue. And if they had a strong concern, right? And so in a setting like that, most of the time, you know, you try to just carve out a little bit of time, uh, to listen, to understand and that sort of thing. And, and I think, um, I, I think there's that formal point of tip of the spear when there's a, when there's angst. But what I think is also important is when there's not angst, um, You know, to be available to the teams, right? Obviously your direct reports are gonna get most of your time, but like in a setting, like a camp, um, that's remote in all of that, um, I had a, a golf cart, right? It was like, oh wow, this is a cool job. I get to drive around in a golf cart, right? Well, a bunch of people had golf carts, not just me, but I found that it was important occasionally. Um, to not use the golf cart, but to walk, right. Because when you walk, you could bump into people and you could have a conversation or a, a quick conversation, which I think helps build an environment where people feel like, oh, oh my goodness. Well, if I had to or if I want to, yeah, I could, I could stop and, and talk to whoever in this organization, right? Yeah. And, and all of that. So I think the environment that you create, Um, that you help create and the culture that you help create, uh, is super important before ever, um, you know, someone's coming to you with conflict or frustration or, or that sort of thing. Yeah. That, yeah, I, I love that point that you made where it's so important to build that trust, to build that culture. So that when you get to the conflict and you have to enter the danger, there's already that base of I know who Dathan is. I, I, I don't know if you remember this, but one story that kind of highlights that for me. Um, uh, So I ran, uh, the snapshot, which is kind of like a, for people listening, it's kinda like a small restaurant that we had at Hume Lake. Um, and one day Dathan just showed up and it just so happened that, um, on that day we were having a competition with our staff to see who could dress up. Like, um, it was summertime and there's the, uh, resident directors we called them where they kind of looked over the summer staff and who could dress up most, um, and then get a picture of it. And Nathan showed up and just said, Hey, how's it going? What are you guys doing? Like, oh, we're dressing up. And I said, oh, let me dress up too. And you just got in there and you put on these clothes. And, and, uh, for me that was, that was one really cool example of how you, uh, kind of entered into that trust building so that, you know, you, you had no idea what was laying down the road, but I could see your, uh, intentionality in that moment of, of caring, um, to build that kind of culture and to build that trust. Um, Have you, have you been in a situation before when you hadn't had time yet to build that trust, but you had to have this really important, difficult conversation you had to enter into the danger, and what are some ways that you work through that when maybe that level of trust isn't there that you would like, but you still, that's still a conversation you have to have. Yeah, I, you know, I would say Zach, when I was young, I mean, I didn't love conflict. You know, I still don't love conflict. But what I've realized throughout the course of my life, and as you know, you progress and you have more leadership opportunities and responsibilities is, um, what, what is harder than conflict is the consequences of not having conflict. In other words, not addressing it, not having healthy dialogue. Right. And so, yeah, there's situations where you have to. Step in and, um, enter sort of the danger zone, um, because it's your job. Or maybe there's situation where there's safety, uh, at risk, right? Somebody's missed something really important that could, uh, harm someone, right? Or maybe somebody's done something that's serious enough that it needs to be addressed right now, right? And, uh, it could end up in a termination or it could end up in. A corrective, um, action of some sort, or maybe it was a misunderstanding. But, um, yeah, there's, there's been times where I've had to step into those types of situations, you know? And, um, and it's not fun, but it's important. Yeah. Right. And if you don't have, if you're not willing to address tough things, um, your organization or yourself, you're gonna, you're gonna suffer. As a result of, um, unde with issues, you know. Yeah. Is how would you, so. As far as getting that conflict, cuz sometimes we need healthy conflict. Not sometimes. Usually we need healthy conflict, uh, to make the best decisions, uh, because we need opposing views. We need, okay, I think this, and okay, well why do we think these different kinds of things? So, In, in your leadership team meetings, if there wasn't that, if maybe everyone was on board too quickly? Um, a term I like is mining for conflict. Did, did you do that? How did you facilitate that? Maybe, or maybe if you could see someone, you could kind of tell from their body language, they didn't quite agree. What are some strategies you would use to kind of get that to mind? That conflict? To get people to speak up? Yeah. You know, um, I'm, I'm sure you're aware of. Patrick Len's book, uh, five Dysfunctions of a Team, right? And so fear of conflict is one of those. And, um, also, um, not trusting, right? Uh, people lack of trust. And I re I remember one time, um, being in a meeting of, uh, of a bunch of top leaders, uh, from the organization. And, um, there was a little bit of conflict right. In, in, in, in terms of an opposing view. Mm-hmm. Right? And, and, and, uh, I remember at the end of it just going like, Hey, hey everybody. Um, today is an example of what's necessary for a healthy team because we need to have an environment where people feel safe to disagree, right? And to share what they really think, not. What they feel like saying based on judging or, or reading the room right. And that sort of thing. So in a setting, yeah, probably, uh, um, is important to try to draw out what people may, maybe not trying to draw out conflict as such, but trying to draw out people's opinion, which can lead. Sometimes to, to healthy conflict or unhealthy conflict for that matter. Right. But maybe there's someone who you're watching the room and, and it's a, it's a group meeting and you're reading their body language, or they're unusually extra quiet. Mm-hmm. Then just, um, ask them, Hey, what, what do you think on this topic? Right. Or maybe their personality isn't as big and. And outgoing as someone that dominates the conversation, right? Yeah. So trying to, um, uh, uh, trying to solicit, um, their opinion. You know, I, I, I think one of the mistakes that, um, leaders make is, uh, because we, we, we all have insecurities, right? But if there is. Trust, which trust is so important, right? Massively important. But if there's trust, I think a, a leader is, uh, ought to be able to feel comfortable with trust, um, in building a team of people that are better than you are at what they're good at. Right. I remember on our team, um, in fact, um, he actually joined our junior high staff way back when I was young and at, uh, Fullerton Free Church as it's now called. Um, and he was a, a Fortune 500 number one top executive project manager for this whole company leading mul, you know, billion and a half dollar projects, right? With other Fortune 500 companies and. We become and, and he joined our junior high team. Right? And we became very good friends. And I knew he worked for this company and I knew he traveled a lot, but the guy was so humble that, um, He never told me how high up he was until years later when, I mean, obviously we continue to be friends. Well, he became the c o o at, uh, at Hume and was on our team. And, uh, I'm pretty organized and can run a project, but he is world class, right? But because of trust, um, and because of close relationship and because of competence and integrity. Um, Uh, you know what? I was comfortable with him in the room, and I think so important for leaders to surround themselves with solid leaders who are even more skilled than you are in that area of specialty. And if there's trust, if there's, um, a clear mission. If everybody's focused on that mission and not on their own standing, you, um, you can get a whole lot more done. And occasionally it means having a tough conversation. You know? I love that you, you just highlighted that. Um, I. Because I can imagine that very easily, that dynamic in, in trying to, I love the idea of trying to surround yourself with, with people that are better than you. I tell that to my clients all the time. I can imagine without trust, as you were saying, that can very easily turn negative and destructive. People are focusing on themselves. Um, um, how easily. Because I can imagine even sometimes in healthy teams that could, we ha, I mean, we're all human. We make mistakes. We sin. Um, how, how easily can that flip switch and what are some things that we can do to make sure that we can still enter the danger, that we can still have that trust with other people so that we can say, Hey, you're so much better than me at this can, how can, how can I do this better? Yeah, and I, I think that that attitude of being able to surround yourself with people who are even, who are stronger than yourself, that part of the key there is. In what they're good at. Right. Right. And then hopefully you're coming to the table with a humility, but not, but, but a confidence, you know, appropriate humility and confidence where you're adding value to the team as well. Right. I remember observing of, uh, of the church in Fullerton when, when in the Swindall era. Um, Let's see, I, I wrote an article that they had asked me to write for a church publication, uh, and I decided to write it on the culture, right? And so I noticed that one thing among, amongst their pastoral staff at that time is that trust was assumed, but accountability was demanded. And so, um, I remember, um, My very first day on the job as an intern, brand new outta seminary, right? The senior leader, um, Chuck Swindall and his assistant, or not assistant, his senior Associate Paul Sale, ammer, brought um, Ray Chang, the other intern and myself into a very sensitive situation. And I'm sitting there thinking, why? I mean, I have not earned, I don't even know these people yet. Like they're trusting me with something and Ray, with something that's huge. And I learned a powerful lesson that, um, you know, you, you try to set a culture of trust. And you try to hire to people that have the character, to have that trust. Right? But I think all of us, Zach, um, I think we all have trust accounts. The, the word picture I sometimes think of is like a bank account, right? In our relationships, in our teams, in our settings, we're either making deposits into the trust account or dangerous withdrawals from that trust account. Let me explain that just a little bit. If you're a brand new junior high passer like I was at one point, you know, every day you're making either a deposit or a withdrawal from that account. Yeah. You say that you're gonna bring your, the students back at 10 o'clock and you're gonna meet at the church. If you decide at the last minute, Hey, we wanna go to In and Out Burger, or we wanna go to McDonald's and, and you don't get back till, um, 10 45. You have just, you've just taken a little bit of trust outta your account with parents who have been sitting in the parking lot for the last 45 minutes waiting for their son to arrive. Right. And, and I, I, in that context, I used to say it, it's like, um, you're making a contract with parents and in a setting like, uh, timing changing, I would say contracts could easily be changed. But they shouldn't be outright broken because you're gonna lose trust. But the flip side is, for a young youth pastor, every day you stay on the job every day, that you're faithful, every day, that you're, um, that, that you're there in some sense. You're making a, a deposit into your account, right? No. Well, no. All of a sudden, I'm, I'm no longer the, the 22 year old leader. I'm, I'm a 27 year old leader. Right. Oh. Eventually you start having kids of your own, potentially. Yeah. Right. Or whatever, and you, you gain, and so I, not only in, in my way of thinking, does the trust account. Um, work for junior high pastors. Right. But it, it's, it works for CEOs. Yeah. Uh, it works in personal relationships. Yeah. It works in government, right. I mean, yeah. I think we're all looking at people either in the media or in government. It's like, oh, are they trustworthy or are they not? Yeah. Right. And, and I think that building of trust is so critical. Yeah. I wanna go back to something you said just a little bit ago in that, um, and this is what Chuck Swindall taught you. Trust is assumed. Accountability demanded. I know how difficult accountability is. That's one of the most relationally dangerous things that we can feel as people is going up to someone else and saying, Hey, you didn't meet the standard. What's up? Um, what are some. Some strategies maybe that, that you learned in that, in that, uh, situation or that you learned or like at a different time in your career that you can use that, that our listeners could use? Because, just because of how intense that discomfort can feel when we have to hold people accountable. Yeah. Um, clarify just a little bit for me, Zach. Sorry. You, you, you said it clear, but I think I missed part of it, so No, I'm, I'm just curious if you can share some ways, some strategies, some tools that people can use to help them hold other people accountable in a healthy way, um, both for the team and for themselves. Right. Well, I think it's super important to start off with that you have healthy expectations. Right, that the person knows what their job description is, for example, or they know what's, uh, appropriate or not appropriate in that context. Uh, for example, that work environment or whatever, right? Because if your expectations are out in right field and the person's expectations are out in the left field, whose fault is that? Right. I mean, right. It, it's maybe a little bit of both. And, and so I, I think you need to go into it with a healthy amount of, um, clarity on what, uh, the expectations are. Right. And I think that, you know, looking for not just the, the thing that someone's doing wrong, but the thing they're doing well, right? And so, Um, if you're watching that, it, it's, it's helpful if you've a, if you've shared some positive things along the way, um, and, and, and therefore it ought to flip side be more natural and, um, and, and, and healthy to receive, um, if you have to share a negative thing. Right. The, the, the, the, the wrestle fest with that is sometimes you, you just don't wanna go there. Yeah. Right. But you really need to. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and I need to Right. And have those harder conversations. Yeah. You know, you can ask questions like, I mean, if you have to, you go right at it, right. And say, Hey, why did you do this in this situation? But maybe another way to phrase it, if you're not quite sure, is, Hey, help me understand what you were thinking about this situation. Right. And then let them start talking a little bit, and then that will give you a, uh, an idea of where to go in that conversation, right? And how to maybe better, um, address the issue, right? Because. We, it's so easy to jump to conclusions about something, you know, have you ever jumped to a conclusion that's like, oh shoot, I was wrong. Now I need a back pedal. And maybe there was really a true issue, but now that true issue is kind of muddied a little bit. Cuz I, I kind of let my emotions kind of run, run ahead of my, my head a little bit. Right. You know, so, um, I, I, you know, importance of, um, Of, of, of, of just honest dialogue, you know, and, and, and, and, and that sort of thing. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank, thank you Nathan again for sharing. I know we're almost outta time here. Um, if you're willing, I've got, uh, a few lightning round questions that I'd like to ask, uh, as we finish up. Absolutely. Let's go for it. Um, favorite leadership court? Oh my goodness. Uh, I don't think it was originally Ronald Reagan, but it's, it paraphrased, um, no telling the amount you can get done if you don't need to take all the credit. That is definitely a paraphrase. Yeah. But, um, something that's stuck with me. Yep. What's one underrated skill in leadership? Hmm. Well, Being able to read a culture, um, having an idea of what's happening around you, um, because there's a lot happening around you, right? Um, there's a lot of good with good and healthy and trusting relationships, but there's a lot of dysfunction, um, out there, all across the world, all across America, in for-profit, nonprofit, church. And understanding what some of those, uh, dynamics are, um, is really helpful in, in situations and in leadership. Uh, favorite author, oh my goodness. Um, I, I, I would probably say Chuck Swindall. Okay. Yep. Uh, the most frustrating excuse someone else can make for not entering the danger. Oh man, isn't it neat to see how God just takes care of us even during hard times? Right. Or whatever. It's like all, all is good, right? Yeah. Um, and, and in reality it may not all be good. Yeah. And, and the flip side is God does take care of us. Right. But that doesn't Yeah. Uh, that doesn't give us an excuse not to do the tough thing. Yeah. Right? Yep. What's your favorite question to ask other people? Oh, man. Well, it's a basic one, but just ask to, uh, hear their story. Okay. Um, their story is, I, I think there's an innate desire for people to share their story, and I think you learn a ton. And you will then have, um, likely a bunch of other questions you can ask. Yeah. When you ask that simple question. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, what's something that you do to make sure you're always learning? Hmm. Well, uh, right now I'm listening to a couple books, um, on, uh, audio audiobooks. Um, try to be in the, in God's word. Um, I, okay. Um, here's another one. When I was in college, I purposefully decided that I wanted to be a collector of fine friends. What do I meant? What I meant by that was I wanted an eclectic group of people. It didn't matter, uh, what they wanted to go into in life, or how wealthy they were or what, where they were from, or background or whatever. The thing that I was interested was, is I wanted. I was very intrigued with people that took, um, the relationship with Jesus seriously and wanted to make a difference in this world. And I tell you, um, I've been able to, um, enjoy the fruits of incredible relationships from a wide variety of people and their backgrounds and their skillsets. And it's just, uh, now after doing that for, for a while, um, it's just fun. Yeah. And I'm very meaningful. Yeah. Uh, do you have a favorite podcast? I learn a ton from them. Right. Okay. You know? Yeah. Oh yeah. Of course. Yep. Yep. Uh, do you have a favorite podcast? Oh, man. Uh, I've jumped around a little bit. Right now. It'd probably be a brand new podcast by a guy named Zach Wilco. But, you know, uh, what, uh, what's a book you keep rereading? Oh, the Bible number one. I mean, I think that's where it starts, right? Oh man. I've reread, um, John Maxwell's book on leadership, the Laws of a Leader, you know, all of that. Yep. Um, uh, oh seven Great Men. And then there's another book, seven Great Women of the Bible, or of History by Eric Metis. That's, I mean, it's short, it's concise, but it's challenging and good. Yeah. Um, uh, mere Christianity, you know, books like that. Yeah. Yep. What's a quality that you see in others that makes you excited to get to know them? Oh, man. Um, missional favorite And, uh, oh, sorry. Go for it. Nope. Favorite way to build trust with other people. Uh, spend some time. Um, how do you stay sharp at work? You know, um, you wanna always be learning, but I think one of the ways that you stay sharpest at work is when crisis come. Uh, when we were at Hume, the, uh, I think it was the 13th largest fire in modern California history at the time. Now there's a lot more that were even bigger, was racing at Hume and should have. Humanly speaking, um, just engulfed the whole camp and we would've lost it. Um, anyway, God changed the wind and, um, it surrounded us on three sides, but no fire touched the campus. I think it's in the points, uh, of times of crisis that you really, um, learn like no other time. And, uh, you, you have to rely on the Lord because, um, man, if God doesn't come through, we're done. You know? Yeah. And, uh, and, and all of that. Yeah. So, crisis. Yep. Yeah. Uh, what do you do to rest? Oh, I have a really, uh, affinity for good hammock, right? Yeah. So I don't spend as much time as I probably should anymore, but, um, in the years that I was at Hume, uh, there, there was a particular spot that I would go and, uh, You know, uh, get, get a, a little opportunity to be alone. Um, maybe to read or to listen, um, on, on the radio, a podcast, uh, or whatever. And, um, or, or just be and enjoy, right? So that's, that's one thing. Yeah. How does gratitude impact your life? Uh, gratitude. I mean, it's, it's, it's. It's how you view life. We all face trials and challenges, but what attitude will you have? You know, I guess it was Charles Tremendous Jones back in the day would say your attitude, um, not your aptitude will determine your altitude, right? So can you look at a situation that's tough and say, you know what, um, And, and not close your eyes and sugar coat everything and all, and go, all right. The situation right now is, is tough, and it, it's horrible. However, I'm thankful and I'm grateful because of all of these things, you know, and, and I, I, I like the old ham. Count your blessings. Name them one by one. And if you can be gra grateful, even at times of challenge, that's huge. Okay. Last question, Nathan. Uh, and then I'll let you go. Um, is white chocolate really chocolate? I have no idea because I, I kind of like milk chocolate myself. Right. Okay. So I will eat white chocolate. Call it anything you want. I like it, but not as much as milk chocolate. Okay. Well, Nathan, thank you so much, uh, for your time today. I really appreciate it. Uh, it's, it's been a joy to catch up a little bit and have this conversation. Oh, absolutely Zach. Uh, God bless and have a good day. Thank you. Likewise. What an awesome conversation. I'm really grateful to be able to share this with you all, and I'm grateful to Dathan for the time that he gave me for the way that he consistently sought to invest in others. My guest next month is actually another connection from Hume Lake Christian Camps, my friend Cliff Carey. Cliff is currently the executive pastor at Sunrise Community Church in Fair Oaks, California, and I'm really looking forward to that conversation. It's another excellent conversation, and it'll be the second last, as I said at the start of the episode, this second last episode, before we pause this podcast for a while. Thank you all so much for joining me this month on the Enter The Danger Podcast. I really appreciate you being here with me, and I'm grateful for your time. If you enjoyed the podcast, I'd also appreciate it if you left a review or rate it wherever you consume your podcasts. But more than that, I'd really appreciate it if you shared the podcast with someone else. If you have any advice to me, I'd love to hear from you. You can email me at Zach. That's Zac c@zwilcoxconsulting.com. That's also my website, z wilcox consulting.com, or you could call me at(559) 387-6436. I also take texts if you don't like to call or if you just wanna talk about entering the danger as well and what that means, how to implement that in a better way in your own life. Please let me know. I'd love to connect and chat. I love meeting new people. I love talking about this topic of entering the danger. Thank you friends for being here again. Until next time, let's remember to choose kindness. Empathy and curiosity.