Osen Imoukhuede - CHRO at By the Hand Club For Kids

This month I'm joined by my good friend Osen. She is an exceptionally thoughtful, intentional, and kind leader.

Links from this episode:

Craig Groeschel Leadership Podcast: https://www.craiggroeschel.com/leadershippodcast
Atomic Habits by James Clear: https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/atomic-habits-an-easy--proven-way-to-build-good-habits--break-bad-ones_james-clear/19493521/#edition=20707871&idiq=31778129
Osen's email: osen@oisolutions-llc.com
Osen's website: https://oisolutions-llc.com/ 

Transcript

0:12

Hello friends. My name is Zach and welcome to the enter the danger podcast, where we have conversations to help us grow in our skills, enter into difficult conversations, kindness, empathy and curiosity so that we can be more effective in our jobs and have deeper and more meaningful relationships. My guest this month is Osen Imokwade. Osen is the CHRO of By The Hands Club. She's also a dynamic people success expert who excels in helping individuals and organizations unlock their true potential. With a passion for leadership development, talent engagement, non profits, education, and CSR, Osen thrives on fostering all around success. Her expertise spans organizational design, health, performance, and coaching. Osen's unwavering dedication to harnessing talents, skills and strengths drives her mission to create impactful and thriving environments. Beyond her professional achievements, Osen is happily married with four wonderful children and is never seen without a book in hand, always eager to explore new horizons. This is a really fun, awesome conversation. I loved having this and I really meant what I said in the conversation and I wish it could go longer. If not any more ado, let's jump straight in. Hi, Osen. I'm so glad to have you today. How are you doing? I'm doing great. Nice to see you again, Zach. Thank you. Likewise. Always lovely to see you. Osen, I'm going to jump straight in here to these questions. First one, what's one event that affects how you enter the danger with others? You know, I always am someone who looks at people's non verbal communication. So I think about, I think about people and I think about the way they like to be communicated to. And then I let that frame my conversation with them. I never approach entering the danger by my preferences. I really want it to be more, they want to be approached, how they prefer to be communicated. And I prep for that. Sometimes I know some people like people leading up to. The conversation by pleasantries or kind of checking in on them. And then some other people just want you to give it to them directly. And so because of that, I tend to always study people and study the way they want to be communicated and prep, prep my conversations that way. I feel it's much more effective that way because then I'm able to ensure that no barriers are put up or any pushback is received as much as possible. Okay. What made you start looking at nonverbal communication and thinking about Prepping like that. Was there something that happened? Was there a trigger point? Absolutely. Um, naturally I used to be, I'm someone who likes to kind of skirt around the edges, you know, try to make big points, but not really hit on a point to get to where I'm going. And then I realized that with some people, I would think I had passed the message across, but I hadn't actually passed the message across. Like when things were not going exactly. Exactly the way they needed to go, I would, you know, go into those difficult conversations thinking that I have to tread softly. Um, and sometimes that works, but I've had situations where I thought I communicated like, hey, this has to change or this has to start. But then I realized that, oh, no, they walked away with a totally different understanding of what I was trying to say. And so once I realized that that wasn't working, I had to change my efforts. And I remember having a conversation with one of my bosses who told me, Oh, sir, you know, your heart is in the right place. You want people to succeed. You want them to thrive in the workplace. But sometimes you just have to, you know. To be straightforward, you just need to see it the way it is, you know, it's going to sting for that moment. But after a while, you know, they're going to come around and they'll be okay. So make sure, you know, you're clear and you're direct as necessary. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so what's a struggle or a weakness that you have personally when it comes to entering the danger? Um, something that's hard for me is I consider myself a people person. So I really want people to be happy. And so I want, I tend to spend a lot of time, you know, uh, emphasizing where they're doing well, what they're doing really, um, great. And then. I, like I said earlier, it makes them not understand what I'm trying to tell them. They need to change because I spend so much time because I want them to feel happy. I want them to feel safe. You know, I keep emphasizing their strong points, but I don't really lay into the areas of opportunity. Uh, but in my journey, in my career, I've learned to Deal with that. I actually before I go into conversations of that nature, I tend to say, okay, you have two instances. You're going to say one and two, and then you're just going to go right into it because I always see the good in people. So, if you leave it up to me, I can say, give, like, 5678. I've seen 10 examples of you're such a great person. See what you did here. See how you accomplish those numbers. See how you're meeting your KPIs and things of that nature that the message gets lost in the middle of all those, you know, um, affirming words. So I've learned to give myself parameters and to say, Hey, you can give one or two and then after that go straight into it because I know that communication is kindness. I know now that communication is kindness and to leave people in a place of limbo or to leave people in a place where they don't understand areas where they can growing or areas of opportunity is actually being unkind. And haven't you seen that in the workplace? Haven't you seen that where people, everyone knows. What someone's not doing well, but nobody's bold enough to say, Hey, maybe you can like grow in that area. Maybe you can try a few things. And so everyone's talking about it, but no one is necessarily telling that person like they need to work on it. And I advise a lot of leaders in my role. And because of that, I tend to have conversations where, and I think I'm going off topic, but I tend to have conversations where I keep telling managers and I keep telling leaders, have the hard conversations. It's going to benefit your direct report in the long run. They're not going to like you. I get it. I also like being liked. But if I know that what I'm doing right now, ultimately, Is going to lead to the greater good of that person's growth and trajectory, then I'm going to do the difficult work now so that we can get to where we need to get to you. I think you kind of already answered this next question a little bit in that answer, but I wonder if maybe there's more you can say. Say on it around how you still have the necessary conversations despite that desire to be liked and to be happy again. You already went into a little bit, but can you expand more of that? Yeah, I, as much as I like being liked by people, I also am very results driven. So I like to see things happening. I like to see our goals being met. Uh, it's really important to me. I like to see that we're moving the ball forward. And as I, you know, continue to progress in my career, I knew I couldn't really stay on that side of always being liked because it was, I was meeting the, the, the, this bucket, right, of being liked, but I was definitely not meeting the other bucket of meeting my goals, right, or meeting the company goals or trying to get us to wherever we needed to get to. And so. I had to recalibrate and ask myself that question, like, do you really want to meet this goals? And if this is the clog in the wheel, whether that's maybe the team is needs to reprioritize their strategy or, or somebody needs to do something a little different. Then you, you need to have that. You need to have that conversation. You need to lean into it and let it happen. So, for example, I worked with someone who, who wasn't a team player. Right? For whatever reason that was, but just was not a team player, did not want to be a team player. But we were on a team where everyone needed to work cohesively together. And, Again, it was a perfect example of everyone skirting around the issue, right? So everyone's talking about this person not being a team player, but nobody actively addressing this conversation. And I was like, you know what? I can't do it anymore. Because I see that there's a, there's a lid on what the team is able to do because this person has all the skills, all the abilities, all the things to be able to help us get where we're going, but they're not necessarily pulling their weight. And I had to have an open, honest, transparent conversation with that person to say, Hey, what's going on? Why is this happening? What, what, what's going on in your mind? Why are you showing up this way? And it was good because no one had ever had that conversation. And what the person actually needed in that moment was someone to listen to, you know, to the things that maybe he had expected in the role and hadn't seen, or promises that had been made and hadn't been met. And so dealing with that disappointment, that challenge, that struggle, um. Made him not want to be a team player because he didn't feel valued and so being a leader on the team and hearing him and saying, Okay, I hear you. How can we do things differently? I think that changed the trajectory and it wasn't easy. It was a really tough conversation. I mean, it was so bad. Like, It was really bad that some people around us, because I had to take it out of the office, we had to go on a lunch break to have this conversation because I knew that we couldn't even have it in the workspace, but it was so critical to us getting where we needed to get to that. I knew that I had to have this conversation, but all in all. That conversation turned the tide around, right? And now we're able to meet the goals we want to get to. We're able to get to the things we need taken care of. And it was all stemming from that conversation, which wasn't easy. But I knew that. If I needed to move this bowl, move that goals forward, I needed to have that. I needed to enter the danger. I needed to hold space for it. I needed to listen and hear from his side. He also needed to hear from my side what I had to say. And then we had to come to a place of compromise. Or place of agreement, probably a better way. Yeah. Yeah. so I love that you have brought up this idea, Osun, of asking questions. It's actually the third podcast in a row that's come up. Um, and I, and I love that. Can you, can you say, when we have to ask questions, that's fairly broad, you know, when we go, Hey, what's going on? Um, What's happening? What kinds of questions should we be asking? Should we be thinking about? What are the important things that we want to make sure we're trying to address there? That's a really good question. Um, when you're approaching, um, a difficult conversation, when you're approaching entering the danger, um, I always want to look at the things that I can observe. Okay. Right. Oh, I can really assume, um, is going on and I use that to ask open ended questions. Um, and I really want to learn. Um, I don't want to approach, um, questions from a, from a point of view of I just want to get to where I want to get to. I really want to learn. I really want to learn about you. I really want to know what's going on with you. And so I say, Hey. You know, our deliverables were meant to be turned in on Friday, and for some reason, you know, you didn't get it to us until Monday of the of the of the next week, it seems like there's something going on in your personal life or something's going on. outside of work. Um, can you share? Would you be able to share some of that? Like what's going on, you know, with all due respect to privacy and the need for people to decide what they can share, what they can't share. But I can notice that everything's not going well with you right now. Like you're not okay. How can I help? How can we support you in this time? You know, so Really, um, acknowledging what I see, even though I'm not happy about what I, what happened, but saying, I noticed this happened, how can I help? And if you, if you feel comfortable, what's going on, but that comes from the place of wanting to learn a lot of times when people enter into the danger, they want to just get to their goal. Okay. Whatever their, their goal is, and so that frames the questions that they ask, right? Because they're not really trying to listen, they're not really trying to understand, they're just trying to tee up to the goal that they want to get to. And so it's important to hold space to, to listen, to understand. Because we can all make assumptions, but we all know what assumptions do, right? I'm not going to say it on. Yeah, on, on the podcast, but we know, we know what happens with assumptions. So I never want to come in to those type of conversations feeling like I already know what's going on. There may be something I don't know. There may be something that is that, you know, definitely is not coming to me in the obvious, and I need to fish it out from that person. So I need to listen to understand. And so. That's the type of questions I would recommend anyone asks, listen to understand, especially when dealing with people. And that's something that I do. So I deal with people and people need to feel valued. People need to feel safe. And once I ask questions that establish safety. I think you can actually get a lot of work done through that conversation because you've established that it's a safe space. There will be no judgment regardless of how people talk because we're humans, you know, we're not robots. We have lives. And so with, with just the. You know, that element of the human nature. Some days you're up and some days you're down and that's okay. And some days you're super confident and some days you're absolutely not confident. Right? And that's okay. And regardless of what people say, we know, we know that trust, right? Is the basis of any healthy team. And so when asking those open ended questions, making sure that I'm emphasizing trust and emphasizing safety and emphasizing that it's a no judgment zone is always where I want to start from in my questions. Yeah. If I'm hearing you is there's 2 pieces, I think that I want to pull out of this. The 1st is, um, you want to be asking about the barriers, right? I think you framed a bit, but again, trying to get a nugget from this. You want to be asking about barriers, but you want to do it. And again, if people aren't aware, the difference between open and closed questions, a closed question might be and tell me if I'm on the right track here. Closed question might be. Is there a barrier? And an open question might be, Hey, what barriers have you got going on? What kept you from, you know, getting your report submitted on Friday instead of Monday? Am I on the right track then? Absolutely. Absolutely. An open ended question gets the person talking. Gets the person talking. Yeah. Because all the only answer you can get from is there a barrier is a yes or a no, right? And that kind of ends it. Yeah. Yeah. Um, how when we get to that question of what's the barrier and you, you mentioned this idea of wanting to create a safe space, how can we create? Because you were also talking about creating safety in the conversation with the questions we're asking. How can we create safety in that process of saying, Hey, what's going on? What is the barrier without creating judge? Because it could be really easy. I could come to you and say, you didn't get the report in. What, like, why, what barriers, what stopped you from getting the reporting when you were supposed to, instead of not, instead of on, you know, that, but that, like, even that tone. So I know tone has something to do with it, because that was, I was trying to have a judgmental tone when I was speaking there. Is there anything else we can do to try to create safety? Absolutely. I, I think that, um, one thing we can do is look at the past. Has this person showed up on time? Before you wanna allude to that and you want that person, you want that person to know, Hey, you've done great in the past when we had project so and so, you delivered on all your deliverables in a timely fashion. Or you've always been a, you know, a great team player. You've always known that what you do affects the rest of the team, and you've always done your part. Why is this different? Right? What happened in this case to make it different. So you are looking at and calling out areas where they thrived, areas where they held their own side of the bargain to help them know that you see them as a valuable member of the team. So Zach, to your example, like what you just did right now, that shut somebody down right away, right? When you come in and say, I expected this from you and you didn't deliver, Um, the person shuts down, but you build people up. You always want to build your people up because your people are your most important assets. They are, they are. And so you want to build them up, but you also want to remember that even though, you know, the world calls people assets, the truth of the matter is they're not assets. They're people, right? Assets are buildings. Assets are, you know, things that add, um, Money on the profit, you know, table or whatever that is, right? But they are people and so Calling out the good in them reminding them of how they've shown up or how they've been great members of the team And then saying well, this is a deficiency right here. This is not true to your type So why did this happen? So to me that is a way of affirming them I'm really saying, Hey, you're doing great. You always do great. It kind of creates your sense of trust. It shows that you trust them. You know they've done a great job and that they're going to do a great job again, right? Or they can do a great job regardless of what the current situation is. So that's one of them. And another thing that I do is I share the challenges. Because life is dynamic, right? And I know that. And so I can say, Hey, I know that you've got this challenge going on, or that challenge going on. So I know that taking on this project might be a bit of a stretch for you. Yeah, it's okay. So even calling it out in the beginning and saying, and when I've done that in the past, when I said, Hey, I know you have maybe a mom or a loved one who's struggling with a debilitating illness or something of that nature. So I know you're going through a lot right now. So it's okay. To to acknowledge that and for even your, your teammates to acknowledge that because again, they are humans. They're not robots. And so that to me creates an environment where you see people in a holistic manner. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's really good. Yeah. Yep. That's the, I think the proactive acknowledging of those situations. Um, I'm gonna, I'm gonna chase a squirrel here just because I thought it was funny because we, before you started, as soon as the words come out of my mouth, we were talking about the closed questions and open ended questions. And then I asked a closed question. I want to say, I appreciate you picking that up and not letting it just be a yes or a no, but that made me, that made me chuckle a little bit inside. All right. Um, all right. I've done chasing that squirrel. Um, what if, so the question I have is what if they're a new employee and they have no history. How do we approach that if we can't point to, hey, we know that, look, you've had the success in the past, how do we then build that trust in that kind of a situation? Absolutely. That's a great question, Zach. I love it. Because, yep, you don't have any history with a new employee, right? But then, that's why when a new employee goes to an organization they've never been before, they need to feel like they're supported, right? That they have the necessary tools to do well on the job. And I have, um, I have a formula for anybody who's new who comes into the organization. Uh, my organization who comes into my team, and that is ensuring that they have all the tools they need setting a plan or a goal for their first. 30, 60, 90 days in the organization, and then also matching them with a buddy, right? It's so important to have someone who maybe not necessarily is your supervisor or someone who you can put up to, but someone who you can trust. You know, navigate your new journey in this new space with it's so important because organizations have things they do. Some of them are overt and really clear to understand, and some dynamics are so vague, right, that you need to be in the know to know what they actually are. So I know that I get that. And so I think it's important that even though you have this like laid out. Um, you know, there's not just goals and strategy and support system for a new employee. There's also someone who can come alongside that person and say, Hey, this is how you navigate this organization. This is how you navigate people. This is how you navigate the culture, just helping them understand it a little bit more. And then from my perspective, I tend to frame my open ended questions with how can I support you? What do you need to help you, uh, feel supported in this area? So if they're not meeting up to where I expect them to meet up to, that's how I'll freeze my questions. Cause I get it. They're new. And with anyone coming into an organization for the first time, it takes them at least a year to understand The organization, I have this funny saying I say to people where I work right now, I say, you have to see this organization in all the seasons, summer, spring, winter, and fall to really understand how it runs. Once you've seen. All the seasons that you get a better understanding of the organization. So I get it. And I tend to ask new hires, how can I support you? What's a way that you can feel better supported in this area? Yeah, that's great. Um, Yeah, this is this is such a great conversation. I'm really I'm really enjoying it. Thank you. I want to, I'm going to jump back in now to this to the same topic we've been talking about, but maybe approach from from another another angle in this idea that, um, if we have an employee that hasn't been doing well, you mentioned earlier how you have to be bold and you have to have courage, which if we have time, I'd love to talk more about that, too, but for the sakes of this, Question if we have an employee who either is new or has been maybe used to perform well, but now hasn't been for a while. To me, that's the kind of conversation that is the most difficult and takes the most courage because we're not going to a high performer and saying, hey, because it's easy, I think, to have empathy and care about your high performers because they're high performers and you can tell if something's wrong, but when you're going to a low performer, that's when it becomes, I think, you know, It feels much more dangerous to us when we talk about entering the danger, at least it certainly does for me. And that's when I think it takes more boldness and courage. What are some things that we can do to set ourselves up for success? And how are some ways that we can approach that conversation with maybe someone who has been a low performer and instead of encouraging them, it's almost like warning them that if someone doesn't change, they're going to be made available to the marketplace. I love the way you said that I stole it. I love it. Wow. I'm going to steal that from you to made available to the marketplace. Right? So I feel like I'm very idealistic when it comes to things of this nature, because why are you a low performer? Why? Why should you be a low performer? I feel that everyone can perform at a high level. And that's what I want to see. I want to see people performing at a higher level. So immediately you're performing at a lower standard than everybody else. That's, that's, that's a red flag. An absolute red flag, in my opinion. So, in the cases where I've had to deal with people who are performing at a lower level than they should, and you know, it's always important to go over the expectations of their role. Like, this is what's expected from you. These are your roles, these are your responsibilities, these are the things that are under your purview. Are you, do you want to do the work? And I know it sounds very simplistic, but it actually is a great place to start. To actually go over those roles and responsibilities. You can even add on the mission of your organization, if the organization has that clearly laid out. And you have a come to Jesus moment with that person to say, are you in? Are you not in? And a lot of times, 90 percent of the time, or if I may say so, people will say, yes, I'm in. Even if they're not in. Right. Yeah. But they will say, yes, I'm in. I'm really in. So when they do that, when they say that, I follow up with, okay, if that's the case, this is what I'm going to expect from you in the next four to six weeks. And so we, and I always frame it with that language of, I want to see you succeed. I see you're not succeeding as you can succeed, right? You're clear about your roles, you're clear about your responsibilities, you're clear about the mission of the organization and where the organization is headed. Now, you have a limited time frame to move the needle, and so whether it's for this four to six week time period, I want to see these four things change. So prior to even going into that conversation, I advise people that I recommend that as a manager or as a leader, you really think through what are those things that need to change in that person's performance. So this is not, um, this is not really personal. It's more of like, what are the things that need to change? And you clearly know what they are, and you outline it, and say in the next four to six weeks, I want to see movement in this area. And have some achievable goals, right, to get there, but also be prepared to provide resources and support for that person to get there. And in some cases, people turn it around. But in some other cases, regardless of all the tools, the support, the outlining of the goals and the metrics that need to be turned around in the next four to six weeks, they don't need it. And then at that point, you know, you make them available to the marketplace, because even though they say that they get it. The actions show they don't get it. Are you familiar with the GWC principle from the EOS framework? I don't think so. So they have a principle that says, does the employee get it? Do they want it? And do they have capacity to do the role? So those three things are things that as a manager you need to be thinking about. Does that low performer get the job? So for example, maybe a couple of years ago they were high performing. They were doing great. They got the job. They wanted the job and they had capacity to do the job, right? And so that's always important to look at and examine. They get the job. Sometimes they get the job and, and that's the most important thing because if they don't get the job, then they shouldn't be in the role, but it could be a situation where they don't want it. They're bored. They want to do something else. There's nothing else for them to do. So now they're tapped out. And then the other option, the other section is capacity. Do they even have the ability to do it? So, I am not a science person. So as much as I may love being in the science world, being a doctor, a researcher, You can't put me there because I don't have the capacity to do it, right? And so those are the three things that I'm looking at with every employee and specifically with low performers because they are failing in three areas. But I'll tell you the most important of those three areas is the get it. If they don't get their job, they shouldn't be in the role. And between that four to six weeks, you know. If they get the role or not, because you would have laid out all the goals. You'd have laid out the, the metrics they need to accomplish. And if they still don't get it at that point, they don't, they don't get it. they may grow into it, but if they don't get the job, what exactly is required from them, you know that once you're done with the four to six weeks of trying to turn things around, that you might have to, you know, make them available to the workplace. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, how there's, there's this idea, I think one of my favorite questions, and if you've listened to the podcast, you've heard me say this before, um, is to ask questions is how did your leadership contribute to this outcome? And I think I hear you talking about that idea. Um, and I think I hear an undercurrent. So correct me if I'm wrong here about especially this first piece with, with GWC, do they get it? Do they want it? Do they, do they have capacity that get it feels like it's a leader's responsibility. And if they, if they don't get it, you know, one of the very first things I think you were saying just before, or not in the podcast, but just in this question was, do you understand the expectations? Am I right in thinking that that's a leadership failure if they aren't getting the expectations? And if it is, how can we approach these conversations with, with this idea that we want to assume the best in them because it might be our fault and not theirs? You know, that's right. It is a leadership failure, and I think that every leader should have some cadence in meeting with their people to go over what's expected from them because vision leaks, right? It always leaks. And I see people in your role, in whatever role you play, you're carrying out a part of a vision. And so you have to be really clear. On what your part of the vision is, and who makes that clear to you, the leader, the leader has to keep telling you and reminding you of what your vision is. Some people are great at it, right? Naturally, you tell them once or twice, they got it, they're going to run with it, but most people are not. And so it behoves the leader to take time on a periodic basis to remind you Them about what the vision is. I cannot tell you how many times I've worked with people who would say they understand what their role is. But then go ahead and do something completely outside of what their role is or not meet up to what their role requires from them. And once I learned that, once I got that as a leader, I started meeting with people on a quarterly basis and I would be like, Oh, these are your roles. These are your responsibilities. These are your key metric areas. Let's go over it again. Sometimes it may seem redundant, but it's not. It's a, it's an opportunity to recast the vision. And so every leader should put pauses in their leadership to go over it again. Because if you don't, People are just going to like stray away from exactly what's expected of them. And you'll find them doing something in another area and they would think they're doing a great job. And a lot of times leaders will be like, Oh yeah, thank you for doing whatever you did. But I really want you to focus on this. But that comes from constant. Communication, like communication needs to be constant. It needs to be on the regular. It needs to keep happening and you need to talk about the most important things, which are getting their role. It has to, it has, you have to keep reinforcing it or else two years, three years, five years down the line, people are not doing what's expected of them, but they feel like they're in a great place. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, uh, that's. That's worth the price of entry right there. Just that last little bit. I love that. That was amazing. We're running really, I wish I could talk to you for three hours instead of just one, but we're, but we're running low on time. Um, I mean, I'd love to jump into a lighting round. That's great. Let's, let's do it. Uh, your favorite leadership quote. Oh, my favorite leadership quote. Uh, leaders eat last. Simon Sinek. I love that. What's one underrated skill in leadership? Oh, empathy. Your favorite author? Ah, that's a, that's a good one. I have so many favorite authors. Um, Hmm. Ah, you know what? Isn't it bad if I say Patrick Lencioni? His books are gold, though. Yeah, they are. It's not, no, that's okay. It's not bad at all. The most frustrating excuse someone can use for not entering the danger? That nothing's gonna change. Your favorite question to ask other people? What do you enjoy doing? I love that. What's something you do to make sure you're always learning? Uh, I actually, like, have goals in my learning area. I always, like, write out a goal of something I want to achieve every quarter. Yeah, that's great. Do you have a favorite podcast? Um, oh, that's interesting. I have not been doing a lot of podcasts lately because of life, but when I did, I really loved Craig Groeschel. Okay. Yeah, I'll put a link to Craig's podcast in the show notes. If you haven't heard of the Craig Rochelle leadership podcast, it's great. What's a book you keep rereading? Atomic Habits. Yep. Yeah, that's another great one. Again, I'll put a link to that as well. If you haven't read Atomic Habits, Uh, by James Clear. You've got to, it's another great one. I'll put a link to that in the show notes. What's a quality you see in others that makes you excited to get to know them? Tenacity. I love when people are tenacious. I don't know if it's one word answers, but like, I love tenacious people. Yeah, that's great. Uh, some people take the lightning round very serious. They try to use very quick and other people turn into a conversation. So, okay, I'll do a mix. There's no right or wrong. Uh, your favorite way to build trust with other people get to know them outside of. The framework that I'm meeting them. So let's say it's work. I want to know more about them outside of work. Let's say it's it's a social environment. I want to get to know what are the things that make them passionate alive. You know, I just try to get to know them outside of the framework that I met them in. Yeah. How does gratitude impact your life? Oh, tremendously. This year I'm committed to every day at the end of the day, having the practice of writing three things that I'm grateful for, because when you're, you've just, you just forget. And so now I try to write down every day, three things that I'm grateful for. It plays a huge benefit in making sure that I'm mentally healthy. Yeah, I love that. How do you stay sharp at work? Never get comfortable. It's a truth. Never get comfortable. What do you do to rest? What do I do to rest? Um, I try to sleep, lots of sleep whenever I can. Yeah. Yep. Uh, last question, Osen. Is white chocolate really chocolate? No, it is not. It's sugar. Give me chocolate any day, any time, especially from the euro. Yeah. Oh yeah. I, I'm a sucker for good dark chocolate. Yes. American chocolate is too sweet. I'm sorry guys, but it is. I really enjoyed this conversation and I had so much fun. Um, really quick before we, before we finish up, is there anything that you're working on that you'd love to share? I think you're excited about. Yes, absolutely. So I have, um, started, um, a side, um, business hustle, just using all my experience, um, in people development and leadership development. And it's called OSE, um, it's called OI Solutions, right? Um, and so it's a leadership development, talent development, uh, organization where we come in and we help build leaders. We help develop your talent. We help strategize and perform other people, um, people functions that your organization might need. So please check us out. Oh, I solutions, uh, dot com. I love that. I will put that in the show notes as well. And if people want to get a hold of you directly, how can they do that? Awesome. If you want to get a hold of me directly, you can email me at Ose at oi solutions llc. com or you can just follow me or connect with me on LinkedIn. My name is Ose Mokwede. It's a unique name, so it's not too hard to find. Uh, so we'd love to connect on LinkedIn and chat more or you can send me an email. Awesome. I will, again, I will put links to all of that as well in the show notes. If you want to find out more about OSIN, go ahead and look in the show notes for that. OSIN, this has been such a wonderful pleasure. Thank you so much. I love this conversation. And again, I really wish we could keep talking, but time. Time is what it is, you know. Have a wonderful day. Thank you. Appreciate it. Thanks, Zach. I loved that conversation. Osin, thank you so much for giving me some of your time coming and joining us here on the podcast. I'm really excited to be able to share that with you. I'm also really excited about next episode. Next month, my guest is 30 year veteran of the Navy and founder of Crux Leaders, Ryan Batchelor. I'm really excited for him to come and join us on the podcast. I know that's going to be another jam packed episode, so I hope you will come back and join me for that next month. Thank you all so much for joining me this month on the Enter the Danger podcast. I really appreciate you being here with me and I'm grateful for your time. If you enjoyed the podcast, I'd also appreciate it if you left a review or rated it wherever you consume your podcasts, but more than that, I'd really appreciate it if you shared the podcast with someone else. If you have any advice to me, I'd love to hear from you. You can email me at zac, that's Z A C, at zwilcoxconsulting. com. That's also my website, zwilcoxconsulting. com, or you could call me at 559 387 6436. I also take texts if you don't like to call. Or if you just want to talk about entering the danger as well and what that means, how to implement that in a better way in your own life, please let me know. I'd love to connect and chat. I love meeting new people. I love talking about this topic of entering the danger. Thank you friends for being here again. Until next time, let's remember to choose kindness, empathy, and curiosity.