Tess Russell

This week I have my good friend Tess Russell on the podcast, an ADHD and leadership coach. *EDIT*: The intro says two years, and it should be twenty.

You're Wrong w/ Mollie Hemingway & David Harsanyi: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/youre-wrong-w-mollie-hemingway-david-harsanyi/id1643776565

The New Economics - W. Edward Deming: https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/the-new-economics-for-industry-government-education_w-edwards-deming/261813/?resultid=f3804b01-cc0f-4f0e-bb3a-1da8de22a830#edition=31717939&idiq=37756301

Dunn Lumber (Washington State) - https://www.dunnlumber.com/locations

Transcript

0:12

Hello friends. My name is Zach and welcome to the enter the danger podcast, where we have conversations to help us grow in our skills, enter into difficult conversations, kindness, empathy and curiosity so that we can be more effective in our jobs and have deeper and more meaningful relationships. This month, my guest is Tess Russell. Tess is an organizational effectiveness coach and facilitator who loves helping teams and organizations build trust, create clarity, and hone the leadership skills they need to serve those around them and go home satisfied. With over two years of store and district manager success in corporate leadership within Starbucks, she understands the unique challenges of navigating ADHD while leading teams. Supporting organizational goals and staying true to one's personal values. Tess herself has ADHD. She specializes in helping neurodivergent leaders gain insight into why they've been successful in the past, the current impact of their ADHD, and the strengths and tactics that will move them forward. She currently lives in California with her husband, grandson, and wire fox terrier, Maggie. Before we get into this month's episode with Tess, I'm gonna take a minute to enter the danger myself here and say something that feels a bit uncomfortable and dangerous, which is the whole reason I started this podcast. I feel uncomfortable I think because I'm a guy talking about it. I felt uncomfortable when I was in the moment, I was unsure what to say, and so all I said was, we'll get better, which we need to do. My wife Sierra also brought it up to me when she listened to it. Because she's been in the male dominated fields her whole career and said it was real for her too. Toward the end of the last episode with Beth Fredrickson, she said something that caught my attention. The fact that sometimes she hides her emotions because if she doesn't, she'll be written off as an emotional woman. Because that's a stereotype that women have had for decades, if not centuries. I remember that stereotype clearly from when I was a kid. Women are overly emotional, but it's just not true. Some women, I'm sure, show their emotions more readily than others, and too much. But so do some men, and some men don't show them nearly enough. Or, like me, some men show their emotions a lot. I'm a very emotional guy and I cry at least 15 times during Little Women. Which, by the way, the new version by Greta Gerwig is amazing. We need to stop pigeonholing people and let them be who they are. Thank you, Beth, for having the courage to speak up and say that. I really appreciate it. Let's keep doing better to have lives of loving, empathy, curiosity, kindness, and sonder. Alright, without any further ado, let's get into this month's episode with Tess. Hi, Tess. Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. I'm really excited about this conversation. Hi, Zach. So am I. Thanks for asking me. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I'm going to jump straight in. Is that all right with you? Sure. Yep. Wonderful. Wonderful. First question, Tess, what is one event that affects how you enter into the danger with others? Yeah. You know, I had to think about this and one of the biggest events was in the summer of 2009. I was Diagnosed with ADHD that the physician actually said, well, you have, you won the daily double. And I said, what is that? After the test that she administered, um, you have ADD and ADHD. Okay, great. So that event was a turning point for me in that. You know, she gave me some medication. I went home. I don't take medication. I wasn't wanting to take medication. So I was a little cautious about it. So I thought, okay, I'm going to wait till I'm not working. I was a store manager at Starbucks at the time. I'm going to wait till I have a day off and take medicine. So I did. And over the next two days on my days off, I actually cried intermittently because I never knew someone's brain could be quiet. Hmm. I had no idea that anyone else lived. In a space where their brain was still, it was like, you know, the, the lake was still, it's like, I remember seeing a stoplight and looking around at the other cars, like, you are all driving your car and stopping at the stoplight. And you're not thinking about something, are you? I could, I just couldn't even fathom it. So it, it was something that, that brought me to at least a level playing field with others. It started me on a journey of understanding. Not only my brain, but my style, my leadership style, my responses. Right. Yeah. Um, it was, it was huge. It wasn't something I could always talk, talk about at work, but it allowed me to begin to comprehend, um, my impact, you know, my intent versus impact and my impact on others. Yeah, yeah, it was huge for me. Yeah, this, this, uh, maybe is really linked to that, uh, question, but what's one struggle or weakness that you have when it comes to entering the danger? Is it linked directly to your ADHD? Yeah, yeah, there's a two, there's two struggles actually I have in entering the danger. One can be, and these are both linked to my neurodiverse brain, but. Yeah. One is responding too quickly, right? And the other is moving too slowly or over processing the information. So when I think about responding to quickly, kind of like, I think about Peter in the garden, you know, cutting the, the soldier's ear off, right. Or, you know, it's just walking on the water and Jesus is like, I won't, you know, bid me to come out there. I'm coming out, you know, he's, he's responding before he's even thinking potentially. Um, I can definitely move into the danger from my gut. ADHD brains, we have a harder time with regulation. And so there's specifically, I'm very aware of that, but I can move in too quickly when someone's not ready. I can move in where I haven't set up the conversation, right. Especially long ago. Um, the other one, the other one is when I move too slowly. And that really comes from place in the past where I blurted something out. Right. Responded too quickly. And so therefore I held back so I can over process my thoughts and over process what I'm thinking, my discernment, right. Thinking about how do I move forward. And if I wait too long, then I don't have the conversation. Right. So there's, it's really, it's two sides of the, you know, two ends of the spectrum for sure. Yeah, that's fascinating that if they're so polar opposites to each other, that's really interesting to me. How do you still enter into and have the necessary conversations that you need to despite those tendencies? Yeah, well, I've thought a lot about that. So it's been, it's been a growth, right? So when I. First was diagnosed. I was working toward becoming district manager, and it was actually promoted quite quickly after that, after my diagnosis. So I had one book by, by Dr. Ed Halliwell, and I don't, I didn't read it. I read parts of it, but I didn't have time, nor do I want to, was I interested in really going deep with trying to figure out what this was or how it impacted me? Because I, I wanted to learn all about. My role as a district manager and being the best leader I could be. Yeah. Um, but therefore, because I didn't know, wasn't educated, then I did seem to go into, you know, could could easily fall into both those pieces. So the way what I had to learn was. I had to be, I had to think about what my intent is, like, what, what is my intent? Who do I want to be? And am I living that right now? Right? What is my intent? The other one is, what is my role in this situation? Just because I felt passionate about something, was it really my lane? Was it my role to have a, have a voice here? I remember being in the car with some peer district managers and. There were four of us and I was in the front passenger and a couple of people were in the back and one of them was talking about they were training a new leader and the person was in a cafe, not a drive through, but they were going to be going to a drive through and I was immediately passionate about that. Well, you know, how are we not thinking about this? Is there, is this really the best way it shouldn't, this person be exposed to a drive thru before they go manage a drive thru store? Like, but I was so intense about it. I remember her, her eyes kind of glazing over. Like I clearly was too intense in the conversation and in my ideals. And I'm like, okay, this isn't working, but I didn't attack. I didn't connect it at all to ADHD. I didn't realize that was even part of my, my brain. I knew it was me, but I thought it was me. And I thought it was. I'm just not good at this, or I'm over speaking over sharing if I'd over sharing a meeting. Um, many people said, well, we'd love you say the things that people are thinking that no one's saying. So there was a lot of, you know, there was some levity there, but that also didn't always serve me well. So I have to think about what's my intent? What's my role? Is this my place? Have I vetted out really what this, what will serve the person well? So for me, I think about my goals. My purpose is love God and love others. Is this really about me? Or is this about loving someone else? Yeah, is this something I need to share with them because they need to hear it whether I feel uncomfortable or not Because I'd rather avoid being feeling uncomfortable Would be right and if I waited too long, then I need to circle back and say, you know I'm sorry. I didn't come forward earlier. Can I talk can I talk to you about this or I I've also had to do, um, sometimes I wait until it comes up again. Right? And then you're in knowing, okay, I've processes already. Here it is again. Now I can enter in correctly. Yeah, it's a lot less damage that way. So, so when you say, so, you know, you said earlier, you have to think about your intent and what's your role. You've kind of been talking about that for a little bit. Is that does that mean that sometimes. Times. Something needs to be said, but it has to be said by someone else. And so you will try not to say that. Is that what I'm hearing you say? Yes, absolutely. So if I'm in a coaching relationship, right, if I'm coaching a client that I know clearly what my role is, if I'm supporting the board at my church, I kind of know what my role is. When I, I can feel intensely passionate about something at our private school here in Lodi, right? I'm not part of the board. I'm not, no one is soliciting my opinion or perspective. So I have to sit with that and go, is this mine to share? Right? I have to know. Otherwise I could, I remember, I remember even in high school, a good friend of mine, Russell Borenig said to me, Tess. Everybody doesn't, you do not have to share your opinion every time. And that kind of put me on my heels. Like, really, huh? You don't care. Like, I thought that's what we did in my household. My dad who passed away last January, who I adore his, one of his love language was engagement. I mean, engaging at the dinner table in some people would say conflict was, yeah. Was. Love. Yep. So I have to think about is this mine to enter? Is this the, is this my danger to enter? Yeah. Or not? Yeah. Is there a correlation there between the the depth of the relationship and the amount that we ask for? So, so I don't think that's a good way to phrase it. So if we have a, if we have a relationship in which I'm constantly asking you questions and asking for your input and asking for your advice, is there a correlation there between that kind of a relationship? And then therefore you'll enter into it. But if, if, if they are asking you, or if you are asking them, then that is kind of the standard by which we can help make those decisions. Or how do we find that line between what is and what isn't true? Our danger to enter. Yeah, good question. Well, for me, I think about who is this serving because if it's about me, then potentially I don't, I may not need to share that. If it's about me sharing my idea, what I think, um, that needs to be solicited. Right? Yeah, for sure. Um, I think it's still figuring out what's what's the risk? What's am I serving again? What's the risk? What's what's the yeah. So, what are you saying? What's the risk of if you if you enter the danger and then find out? Oh, this is actually wasn't my danger to enter. Is that is that what I'm hearing you say? Yeah, I think it's really about, I have to, for me, knowing that with ADHD, there can be a self regulation component. Yeah. I have to think about what is mine to do? And I know I've said that, but I can't, every hill can't be one to die on. If I'm serving on a board, I can't, that's exhausting. That's exhausting. Like every topic is a hill, so I have to regulate. And think about that. Um, because I am passionate about a lot of things, right. And I have expectations, uh, as a leader of people, when I focus on what they, what their intention is, what their goals are and what they want, then I don't seem to have that struggle, right. When I'm allowing them to drive their own leadership growth, um, and the conversation. So as a coach, as an ADHD coach or as leadership coach. The person in front of you is driving that conversation. You are not. And whenever I've tried to drive someone else's development, because I see the potential in them, uh, that completely backfires. Yeah. Because now you're pressing someone, right? Yeah. It does something they don't want. Yeah. Yeah. So I learned a long time ago that doesn't work. Yeah. I think that is, I don't remember who said this, but I remember hearing a long time ago that learning is about. Or growth is about layered learning, right? And so it just seems like this idea of understanding is this, I love how I'm totally stealing this, by the way, when you said, is this my danger to enter? I love that. Um, I'm totally going to steal that because when I'm a kid, as you said, I did the same thing. I would go up to everyone and be like, I don't like your hair. I don't like your shoes. I don't like whatever. Like I'm totally, I'm giving them like. I'm giving them all the advice in the world because of course I knew everything because when you're a kid you're self confident you just think yeah and then as you go as you said you realize oh I shouldn't give everyone my opinion all the time it seems like if I'm hearing you right this is another layer of learning on top of that discerning to a deeper level okay you Now is this my danger to enter? It's another step to that. Am I on the right track here? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And it's different, you know, in the household, in the family, um, and in the workplace, but it's, but it can be applied to both. Right. So knowing my, what is required of me, what is, Where will I flourish and I flourish by serving others and loving them. So yes, is this my danger to enter is really, is this what I'm called to speak up about when, when you talked about being a kid and telling people, yeah, that's, that's wrong. That's ugly. That's whatever. Then I think for me, there was a, you know, the polar opposite of. Well, I want you to like me. So now I can't say that to you, or I don't know how to say it well. So I don't know how to say it. So I'm not going to say it till I can say it perfectly. Yeah. And then that moment passes. Yeah. And now how do I come back to you now and say, Hey, that thing you did three weeks ago, well, that doesn't feel so great, but it's that slower processing speed. Sometimes I have. Where I have to really think through what do I believe, what, what is important here, um, before I can step into that. Yeah. Is there a, this is, this is, I'm backtracking. I want to come back to this, but I'm backtracking a tiny bit here. Is there a way, is it just as simple as sometimes we have to ask for advice, um, to figure out if we aren't sure if we're growing in this area of, hey, is this my danger to enter? Do I need to. Have this conversation. Do we ask people for advice? Do we ask the other person like, Hey, is it, are you like, are you open to my input in this? How do we approach that? If we aren't sure, but we think it's important. Yeah, no, that's a good question. You know, I think absolutely the person that you're talking to, you can ask, of course. But where I, where, where I, um, gain traction there more is I'm a wonder inventor right in the six types of working genius. I'm a wonder inventor. And I can be in that ideation world all by myself. My husband, thank God. My husband, Tim is a discerner enablement, so I can go to him and just kind of spew it all out on the table and he can just bottom line it with one sentence like, okay, This or he'll, he said to me one time when I was a district manager and I was, I was talking about a peer and I was kind of distraught about it. And he said, Tess, that person is an empty vessel. They cannot give you what you're asking and it was like, oh, so I didn't in that stage. I didn't need to enter the danger with a peer. Because it didn't, it was going to be fruitless, right? It was not going to be profitable for them or me. And I would just be disappointed. And you just reminded me. And the empty vessel is actually from a movie from, um, Lonesome Dove. Okay. I think it was Jake Spoon or somebody like, yeah, they're an empty vessel. Meaning it wasn't, he wasn't, it wasn't a degradation. It wasn't, this person is not a value. It's like, they don't hold what you're asking. They can't, and they can't enter that conversation with you. So, and that was, that was important. So for me, I need to connect with somebody else, mostly my husband. Because otherwise, I wouldn't, I wouldn't go to a different peer. That's, you know, that, that breaks down trust. Yeah, going to someone who knows me. Yeah, they'd be able to give me advice, right? How do we, if there is, because I think we've all had people in our life like that. Um, to use your phrasing, they're an empty vessel where they just see things differently or they don't value the conversation or they don't. think that it's an issue, whatever this looks like, um, how do you approach that when they just aren't going to hear what you're saying, but you still have to be in a relate, like if it is, because you can't, it's not really viable for you to quit. And it sounds like maybe you couldn't fire them for whatever reason. That's not even good. Sometimes like, maybe let me phrase this in two parts. If I may test one, let's say you, you are in a position where. You can coach them and be like, Hey, this is how you need to grow and change because this is what we value when they aren't willing to listen. And then, and then if, if you're not in a position to do that, like, do you, do you terminate that relationship? But how do you start to approach that? Yeah. Well, in this instance, it was a peer, so it wasn't someone I had to, so if it was a, it was one of my leaders, one of my managers, that would have been different. What, what it really was about is that I wanted to go to a depth. Relationship and conversation. I wanted to go to a place that this person couldn't go. There's an intensity about me. Um, I saw this t shirt, I thought, Oh, I need that t shirt. It says I'm not for everyone. Oh, that's, I could totally wear that. I'm not for everyone. And that's okay. And yeah. And everyone's not for me. But what I was asking, I was asking too much of someone. Um, when I think about coffee, okay, so with Starbucks, the espresso bean, which I drink espresso straight up and I love that, but an espresso bean has to be a specific coffee bean that can withstand the pressure of being roasted to the degree of espresso. It's dark, right? If it's, if it doesn't have the quality, it will just break down in the roaster. Okay. Yep. So what I was doing is in the relationship, I wanted to go to depths of conversation with this person that they couldn't go. And it was breaking them. And it was really selfish, actually, when I think about it, right? Yeah. The need I had that couldn't be met there. And so what, what I, once I assess that actually through my husband's discernment was I could just enjoy the relationship or what it was. Yeah, enjoy the person for who they were not for what I was trying to extract from them. Yeah, so, so it, you know, I think in a situation where you're leading someone, if they can't, you know, if there's an opportunity where they need to go potentially in a leadership position. Development skill or that's a different conversation, right? That's helping, helping them see it and having a conversation to understand if they want it. Right. Yeah. And then they drive that. But this was more about me wanting to go to a depth that I was asking something that wasn't, wasn't fair. Yeah. Is that, I think that could very easily be. a recurring issue with anyone. I can certainly see it in my life, now that you brought that up, where we have this idea where we want to enter the danger with someone, and we've convinced ourselves it's for them, but actually it's selfish, and we want something from them instead of something for them. Is that, is that, um, fairly prevalent, or is that just me? I know that I have a tendency towards, um, Some of those things where I, I really want to have the difficult conversations and I, and I really value that to the detriment often, um, is that as prevalent in other people? And if so, is there something we can do to check ourselves before we go into those conversations? Yeah, uh, good question. So, so I think two things, the more I learned about working genius and thinking about how that model overlays. I'm going to the way I'd like to do work. Right. Not so much even in personality, but I value asking what's possible. Yeah. And I love looking at problems because then once you see the problems, like that's great. Look at the potential. Look at what we can do. Very idealistic. I had a manager one time. I loved it. He said, Tess, what I love about you, you just want to boil the ocean. I'm like, that's probably not so great, but I don't always. Remember or know what the details are to get this done. If like, well, why can't we do it? Why can't we do it? All right. Yeah, so my, I've understood, I understand that I need to be with other wonders and discerners wonders inventors to have the wondering conversation that we're free to have, even if we don't take action on something, that is something I enjoy when I think about, oh, something I'd love to do is. Yeah. Go back in time and sit in the pub with C. S. Lewis and, you know, the Inklings as they talk just to, just to listen and just like, I would love that. Other people would think I'd hate that. I don't want to do that. So it's okay that we're different, but I do think, yeah. So understanding where do I get fed with that? Where do I go? Who are my people? And then where do I need to be cautious about that? Um, yeah, because I didn't always know. How I can overwhelm people or I knew it and didn't know what to do. Yeah. Um, um, if I'm hearing you, right. So I heard, I heard someone say once, um, might've been a friend of mine, Tony Zippel, actually, um, that he says, um, our needs create, uh, our needs create drives, drives, create behaviors. And so if I'm hearing you right, then, then what you're saying is we need to understand the need. Like, where is this, uh, Desire to have the conversation coming from, because that's impacting their behavior. So it's almost like you're saying you have to go back to self awareness first to understand. Is this selfish or not? Am I hearing you? Yeah, I think the more we grow, the older we get, right? If we're willing to be self aware that that is a key, right? Yeah, because in with my, with my brain, it's a moment by moment. And specifically daily, right assessment of where am I and I don't always remember unless I'm capturing it and writing it down and remembering where that is, um, what works before what, what got, you know, how do I get messed up or caught up in a trap before doing the same thing again? Like, oh, that was embarrassing. What happened? Yeah, I had a leader say to me one time, you know, by afternoon in our meetings. You kind of lose energy and I'm like, okay, then maybe I need to eat something. He said, then eat something like, okay, okay. Or, you know, there's some, just, how do I learn things quickly to benefit others and myself? So, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's, it's amazing to you. I mean, you said that super offhand, you know, how you had someone come to you and say, you get low energy. That's like to me, um, that's such an awesome thing to have where you can have people essentially showing you your blind spots because we so often don't realize when we're high energy, when we're low energy and we need people. To be able to speak to us like that, say, Hey, did you know this is how you're coming across? Did you know that when you're thinking you actually look like you're really mad? So let's work on that. That's anyway. Sorry. I just wanted to highlight that. That's I love that. You said that. I think often though, what happens is people tell you, but they don't always want to dialogue about it further. Right? So I had some great leadership. At Starbucks, and I had some great leaders who actually really did walk alongside you, help you develop certain things. But I, again, have been told where one senior leader said, have we made you, we were, we're touring. It's just like, have we made you tired today? And I thought, oh, my gosh, what is the look on my face? Because a couple of times have been shared that I'm either engaged or I look totally disengaged. And I, since, you know, the last couple of years, as I've learned more about ADHD and really learned about how I enjoy doing work, I realize when I'm thinking when I'm processing. I make, I can very much look disengaged and I don't always know how to adjust that until unless I have a relationship with people and they know, Hey, when I'm processing, you know, can you give me space? Can you give me time? I'm, I'm there with you. I just may not be speaking because I'm either going to act impulsive. I remember thinking at the time, um, if a conversation is boring, if I'm not interested, boy, that's really tough for me to stay engaged. Yeah. Yeah. Where is the line, do you think, between helping people understand, because such an important part of having healthy relationships, as you know, is, is saying, hey, these are the things that I'm bringing with me, you know, these are the things that show up, these are the wounds that I have, that's a really important piece of it, where is the, so, so in this case that you're talking about how you need space, where is the line between This is what I'm, this is what I'm showing up with. Please accept that. And I need to work on it to get better. So, so does that, am I asking this question? You know, I think there's people you can't necessarily say that to, um, if you don't have a relationship, you can be aware of it. Um, and you can do everything you can to adjust and ensure that you're working. And showing up well in that situation. I do think having those honest conversations about, Hey, here's how, here's what I am working on. Here's how I, May show up. What do you need? And here's what I need. So it's very specific for, um, the neurodiverse employee, right? Or leader to say, Hey, here's what I need from my leader. And oftentimes we don't ask for help fast enough because we may not know what help we need. We're too concerned about being that vulnerable because now. Maybe that's going to be used against me. Right. Of course. And, and so I think it's, um, we own our own growth and the vulnerability to say, hey, here's what I am working on. Would you please give me feedback? You know, can we have a connect the next day after whatever meetings or whatever? Can we set up a time? Because I, this is important to me and I want to focus on this, but, but if, but the two way dialogue, the two way coaching conversation with a leader and their direct report is so important. Yeah, yep. Yep. That's that, that, that question you said, like, what do you need for me to be successful? That's. Not nearly enough leaders ask that question, you know, I think so often as a leader we just get this This is what you need to do to be successful. You need to do these things instead of saying what do you need? I love that Yeah, the leader of people has to know what does this person that's in front of me need? Yeah, what will help them be successful? I don't own it, but I should ask because there is something that they need. Um, yeah, having those authentic conversations, you know, that you have to have that. Otherwise, it's just. We're just covering ourselves all the time. Yeah. Yep. Tessa, I love this conversation. We're almost out of time. Uh, I'd like to transition into a lightning round of questions, if you're willing. Sure. Awesome. First question. Your favorite leadership quote? Oh, it's Deming. Um, W. Edwards Deming from a book that I love. Um, he says, he says, a manager of people, I have to read it for you, understands that people are different from each other. He tries to create for everybody interest and challenge and joy in work. And I love that. Yeah, that's great. What's one underrated skill in leadership? Listening, truly listening. Your favorite author? My favorite author is, um, Dane Ortlund. Okay. I don't know if I've ever heard of Dane Ortlund. He wrote a couple books that are amazing. I, I will look him up. I'm always, look, I'm always looking for new books to read. Uh, the most frustrating excuse someone can make for not entering the danger. Um, I think apathy, just your favorite question to ask other people. Oh, I don't, I, I love asking questions, but I don't know that, I don't know that I have a favorite question. I love to ask, what do you, what have you been learning lately? What's God teaching you? I do love that question. Yeah. Yep. What's something that you do to make sure you're always learning? What's something I do? Yeah, what's something you do to make sure you're always learning? Um, whenever I am working, working, walking, cleaning the house, I'm always listening to a podcast or audio book. Podcasts specifically will spur me on to, oh, something else I want to learn. Yeah, uh, so many people say, I didn't plan it this way, But the next question is your favorite podcast that so many people say listening to podcasts. So it worked out well, but what's your favorite podcast? One of my favorite currently is called You're Wrong. It's Molly Hemingway and David Harsanyi. It just gives me kind of an insight into politics and the world and I like that they banter a little bit. Yeah, that's, that's what I like right now. I will put a link to that in the show notes. A book that you keep rereading. You know, uh, I listen to a lot of books. The one that I have gone back to, I think, most of the time is, is The New Economics. It's an older book by W. Edwards, Deming, that, A wonderful leader of mine, Lars Corber, gave me one time in 2016. I love it. Yeah. What's a quality you see in others that makes you excited to get to know them? Uh, I would say wisdom, wisdom and yeah, wisdom. Your favorite way to build trust with other people? Well, asking questions, but I have to be careful with that. If I go too deep and someone's not, someone's not into that. Yeah. Yeah. How does gratitude impact your life? Gratitude slows me down and it tethers me. It definitely slows me down. How do you stay sharp at work? Continual learning, but also I really need to be connecting. I connect with other people. That iron sharpens iron. Yeah. What do you do to rest? Uh, creativity. I, well, I love being out in the garden, out in the yard, out in creation, walking, walking, exercise. I just want to get out where I don't have anything due or yeah, no notifications pinging me. Yeah. Freedom. Uh, last question here. Is white chocolate really chocolate? Oh no. I don't know what your take on that is. No, I, I went to science in all of the ways. It doesn't taste as good. Also, I'm pretty sure it's made from milk fat, not actual chocolate. So I don't think it's actually, like, I don't think there's any cacao bean in it at all. It's waxy. Yeah, no. Yeah. It's like the, the sugar, if there's nothing else to eat, then maybe, you know, or you're starving, you know, Or something. I don't know. Yeah, that's a hard. No, no, no, but we can still like people that like white chocolate, right? Yeah, yeah, it's, it might be difficult, but we can ask the questions about their drive for white chocolate. Yeah, I really appreciate you coming on. Join me for the podcast before we go. Is there anything you want to shout out anything you're working on that you'd love to let people know about. Shout out. Um, well, if you live in the Pacific Northwest. Go visit Dunlumber. It's a great retail lumber yard. You have all your need. I'll help you build it, build a deck or get some Dunlumber. I will put that in the show notes as well. I'll put a link to Dunlumber in the show notes. Awesome. Uh, awesome. I appreciate it Tess. And I really look forward to the next time we are able to chat. Awesome. Thanks Zach. Take care. Bye. Bye. What an awesome conversation. Tess, thank you. Thank you for joining me for this month's episode of the podcast. I really appreciate it. I loved the conversation we've had. Next month, my guest is going to be Katie Armantrout. Katie worked as a sales director for Procter Gamble for North America. She has also been director of marketing communication for Changing Gears. She's a guest speaker at the University of Cincinnati. Katie. owns and runs an organization called PeopleFluence now. Uh, it's an awesome organization. Highly recommend you check her out. She will be on the episode next month. Thank you all so much for joining me this month on the Enter the Danger podcast. I really appreciate you being here with me and I'm grateful for your time. If you enjoyed the podcast, I'd also appreciate it if you left a review or rated it wherever you consume your podcasts, but more than that, I'd really appreciate it if you shared the podcast with someone else. If you have any advice to me, I'd love to hear from you. You can email me at zac, that's Z A C, at zwilcoxconsulting. com. That's also my website, zwilcoxconsulting. com, or you could call me at 559 387 6436. I also take texts if you don't like to call. Or if you just want to talk about entering the danger as well and what that means, how to implement that in a better way in your own life, please let me know. I'd love to connect and chat. I love meeting new people. I love talking about this topic of entering the danger. Thank you friends for being here again. Until next time, let's remember to choose kindness, empathy, and curiosity.